Problems with 2nd Caleb episode
POSTED BY: Succatash
UPDATED: Wednesday, May 7, 2003 06:05
VIEWED: 10647
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I'm still having a problem with the shift in mentality. One minute they're behind her and the next not. Xander gives a speech about trusting her and now he agrees with everyone that Buffy is not to be trusted.
I'm still having problems with Giles second guessing her and making decisions in her absence. She is the slayer, he is the watcher. The slayer fights alone, that's true. Buffy is being reckless and inconsiderate that's true. But Giles trying to get Spike killed? Giles sending Spike away when Buffy needs him most? Things would be different if Spike was there for this showdown.
I'm looking forward to see what Joss does with the remaining episodes. Definitely need more Caleb.
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I missed the entire episode as I was at work and my vcr didnt record it. If you could tell me what happend piece by piece I would much appreciate it. Thanks alot in advance.
Ps I got the part about the gang kicking buffy out. I find tha weird did Joss write this ep or did someone else.
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Novagrass wrote:
"It was hardly sudden."
As somebody already mentioned, Xander gave a big speech about supporting Buffy during the first Caleb episode. It was a touching speech, full of love and loyalty.
I'd say it's pretty damn sudden.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Succatash:
Novagrass wrote:
"It was hardly sudden."
As somebody already mentioned, Xander gave a big speech about supporting Buffy during the first Caleb episode. It was a touching speech, full of love and loyalty.
And then he got his eye gouged out and two potentials were murdered viciously, as Buffy just sits back and takes it like nothing has happened, willing to lead the cavalry right back into the EXACT SAME trap.
Buffy made a huge mistake, a mistake that KILLED PEOPLE and rendered Xander handicap. She practically murdered those girls herself, and was willing to murder the rest without a second thought. She's been letting her girls die left and right (since Bring on the Night, episode 10 of this season), without seeming to care (if she did, she hasn't been showing it to the rest of them, she's been bottling it up, keeping her fire of righteousness burning bright). She's been allowing them to die, she's been encouraging them to run off and get killed if they don't blindly follow her. I'd say that's pretty damn poor leadership. She can't seem to get it through her head that her followers ARE following her blindly, and continues to act as the self-righteous leader with no one following her orders (when in reality, every order she's given has been enacted without hesitation, with the exception of this last one). And Buffy is not a follower, she can't follow, she shouldn't be expected to follow, so she has no place with the group. And what is she going to do? Kick over fifty people out of her house with no place to stay? I'm more suprised they didn't kick her out before this.
Buffy is a pretty definitive hero's journey. Name me one hero's journey where the hero hasn't been seperated from their friends and forced to make their final journey alone (usually with one confidant for support). Bet you can't.(read Joseph Campbel's "The Hero With a Thousand Faces" for more information on the hero's journey). And I think they're doing a pretty good job of alienating her in a very believeable way.
--Dylan Palmer, Pretentious Bastard at Large--
"Oh my god, I'm a hack!" - Joss Whedon
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Quote:
Originally posted by FireflyPassenger:
Giles sending Spike away when Buffy needs him most?
The thing is, Spike is hindering Buffy's ability to lead. She keeps putting people's lives at risk at his expense, and if Spike hadn't stopped Buffy from kicking Caleb's ass after Molly was killed, Xander would still have two eyes.
Also, Buffy seems to put too much trust in Spike being her only fighter. She underestimates them all and thinks they're trying to sabatoge her (as she said to Faith in the big group meeting, and as she implied to Giles when they were alone) and as long as Spike is around to cater to her every whim and validate any decision she decides to make, she'll continue in her already established behavioral patterns. She seems to place Spike on some sort of pedestal, allowing him to get away with things he shouldn't be allowed to (ie, killing Wood if he "even so much as looks at [him] funny").
Spike keeps Buffy from making the right decisions because she's too emotionally invested in his absolute devotion to her.
--Dylan Palmer, Pretentious Bastard at Large--
"Oh my god, I'm a hack!" - Joss Whedon
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LEGALBEGAL asked:
Quote:
I find tha weird did Joss write this ep or did someone else.
'Empty Places' was written by Drew Z. Greenberg.
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Here's a cool line of dialog that has stuck with me for several years now. It's from a Batman: The Animated Series episode. I feel it applies here for both Buffy and Batman are heroes fighting the good fight... the BIG ENDLESS good fight... with some help from others, but ultimately alone. In the episode (I think it's called 'I Am the Knight') Batman is questioning why the hell he bothers fighting crime and wonders if he's even making a difference at all.
Here's the quote spoken by Batman himself:
"A fanatic is a person who redoubles their efforts while simultaneously losing sight of their goal."
My question is: Has Buffy lost sight of her goal? When you boil it down, isn't her goal to 'know her enemy'? She needs to know her enemies in order to defeat them. In the past, Buffy and the Scoobs hit the books and always found a way to defeat the baddies. Brain first then brawn.
However, now Buffy seems to be in a big hurry and is focusing on the physical more than the mental aspect of war. She wants to charge in and fight without having all of the info she needs to achieve victory.
In an unintentional intervention, her comrades in arms told her as much and Buffy in pure fanatic style refused to see their side. Our heroine doesn't seem to care so much where Caleb comes from or how he is empowered with such awesome strength.
I'll have to watch 'Empty Places' and the preceding episodes again, but I think this new alienation from her comrades is fully earned storywise. Buffy crossed over into fanaticism at some point and I believe it was earlier than last night's ep.
mattro
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I wasn't surprise with the fight but the “we are kicking you out” surprised me. What the fuck?
Let us not get into Anya with the "Who says you are worthy..." Well let us see maybe the fact that: few slayers, if any, live to see their 20s. She threw herself into a hell mouth opening to save a sister who isn't real. Every other fight they have engaged in has been won under her leadership, as well as 7 years worth of other reasons.
Though I agree that going to the vineyard wasn't one of her best ideas. I also agree she's been a bit of a bitch lately, but hey I would be stressed out too if I was the ONLY ONE with the true job saving the world. Faith is cool and all, but it isn't her show.
Xander lost an eye. He is lucky this is the first time he lost anything considering the stuff they have been through. Potentials died, yeah well if she didn't take them in they would have died sooner.
I would have smacked Dawnie... She always had this little attitude that got on my nerves. That whole "I'm not getting enough attention" vibe needs to go. I don't care if she is just a teenager.
But I also agree, Buffy should be alone for a while. They just make her weak. Once, her friends made her strong, they reminded her why she was fighting but no longer, they can only make sacrifices when it doesn’t hurt. Yeah, yeah, yeah you broke an arm and lost an eye, but this could be the end of the world, I would say your loses were small.
But I don't think the first wants to end the world, maybe rule it. After all why kill off all the potentials if you were to destroy the world anyway? Everyone would just be gone, but if he wants to rule, that is the only reason why I would see them as potential dangers to his plan, because there would always be a slayer to deal with.
I can't wait until they find themselves in a moment of fighting and realize they are hopeless without her, only to have her walk up with her sword, and kick some ass and save their weak ass lives! I bet they will be falling over themselves trying to do the "i'm sorry" cry then. P)roviding she lives (serious doubt).
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Quote:
Originally posted by Hjermsted:
I'll have to watch 'Empty Places' and the preceding episodes again, but I think this new alienation from her comrades is fully earned storywise. Buffy crossed over into fanaticism at some point and I believe it was earlier than last night's ep.
mattro
I love Batman The Animated Series, back when it was on Fox. So smart...
Anyway, I totally agree Mattro... in fact, I'd say she crossed the line between heroism and fanaticism somewhere around "Get it Done," perhaps when Chole hung herself... or maybe she lost it when she was ressurected in season 6, after all, this is her first big fight since then.
What I'm most interested in now is how she reclaims that sight of the goal she once had... how she'll earn her place as the leader of the group.
And going on a tangent... I've always had a theory that the hero in Buffy has never really been Buffy herself, but that it has been divided between the three main characters, Buffy, Xander and Willow... each representing a part of a hero, and becoming a whole only when assembled. I think that this story arc is to establish Buffy as a hero in her own right... which may be interesting. But yeah... major digression.
--Dylan Palmer, Pretentious Bastard at Large--
"Oh my god, I'm a hack!" - Joss Whedon
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Novagrass wrote:
"Buffy is a pretty definitive hero's journey. Name me one hero's journey where the hero hasn't been seperated from their friends...Bet you can't."
What are you talking about? You should read more carefully.
Succatash: "The slayer fighting alone is a cool idea."
Let's try to stay on topic. The issue isn't about a lone hero. It's about the sloppy way it happened. My original point was that I didn't find that scene to be believable, for a variety of reasons. I am not talking about the traditional hero's journey.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Succatash:
Novagrass wrote:
"Buffy is a pretty definitive hero's journey. Name me one hero's journey where the hero hasn't been seperated from their friends...Bet you can't."
What are you talking about? You should read more carefully.
Succatash: "The slayer fighting alone is a cool idea."
Let's try to stay on topic. The issue isn't about a lone hero. It's about the sloppy way it happened. My original point was that I didn't find that scene to be believable, for a variety of reasons. I am not talking about the traditional hero's journey.
Sorry I got off on a tangent.
Geez, a bit confrontational, aren't we?
So, you're up on staying on topic, which is a good idea, I apologize that I wasn't.
And actually, I did tie in my argument at the end... " And I think they're doing a pretty good job of alienating her in a very believeable way." Maybe I'm not the one who should be reading more carefully? Or maybe you could add a little more insight than simple, unfounded condemnation? Do you have nothing else to say?
--Dylan Palmer, Pretentious Bastard at Large--
"Oh my god, I'm a hack!" - Joss Whedon
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