WIll we believe him again?
POSTED BY: SignyM
UPDATED: Monday, August 22, 2005 08:56
VIEWED: 11093
PAGE 12 of 12
Quote:
the guy who beat Ortega was the owner and publisher of the opposition newspaper. Yep, there was such a thing - they tend to be in very short supply in communist countries.
Uh, actually the 'guy' who beat Ortega was Violeta Chamorro. Her husband Pedro had been assinated by Samoza in 1978. She took over running his newspaper La Prensa after he was killed. It was regularly censored or closed as the occasion warranted by Ortega. I guess our ideas of a free press differ.
SergeantX, I'd like to address your comment about him resigning out of the goodness of his heart. I'll grant there may have been some of that. But because of the immediately preceeding Iran-Contra scandal, this was not your run of the mill election in a foreign country. Both sides in Washington were fully invested in it's outcome. The reps were of course for Violeta and the dems for Danny. There was a steady stream of senators, congressmen and even an ex-president from the left going down there to offer him support and encouragement. This was heady stuff! Add to that the pre-election polling showed Ortega with a commanding lead, he felt he had nothing to lose by holding a fair election. When he was solidly trounced he in a fair election he faced the choices of giving in or tossing Violeta into jail and ignoring the results. At that point even the left would have had to denounce him and call for his ouster.
Why were the pre-election polls so wrong? The best answer I've seen comes from PJ O'Rourke (read everything he's written!). I'm paraphrasing Pollster: 'Hello there powerless peasant, I'm somebody you don't know, who my be reporting your answer back to the government that issues you your ration card. Now please tell me how you plan to vote in the election.'
But for those on the left, take heart. Ortega is still kicking around in Nicaraguan politics.
carpal tunneled Fivver
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Quote:
Originally posted by fivver:
SergeantX, I'd like to address your comment about him resigning out of the goodness of his heart....
LOL... I didn't say anything like that. It just seemed a little ridiculous slamming someone because they allowed the people to reject them through a popular election. I mean, what the hell? It's more than we're willing to do in Iraq.
SergeantX
"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock
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Quote:
Originally posted by lynchaj:
WTF? I have made no statements at all about what mistakes the US has made, if any. Please do not interpret that as saying I believe there are none. You should not draw any conclusion from a lack of a statement. I merely choose not to reply in an obvious bait by HK. There is a huge difference -- one I hope you can understand.
A lack of evidence does not make for evidence of nonexistence.
I'm afraid you've stumped me this time, AJ
SergeantX
"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock
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Quote:Ollie was doing what he did on orders, let's not pretend differently.
Originally posted by lynchaj:
The whole Iran/Contra affair was some misinformed individuals who broke the law. The US or the US government as a whole did not do it
- Remember, plausible deniability -
He was not instructed as to exactly HOW to achieve his goal..
- Plausible Deniability, ever hear of it? -
He was promised a saftey net should he be discovered (did he go to prison?).
And Regan didn't know what he was up to.
- P D strikes again -
Do you really not know how it works?
Or are you just plausibly in denial Chrisisall
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Sarge, I just saw Sin City, and a line from it really hit me:
" Real power is telling the biggest lie that everyone knows in their hearts isn't true, and makin' them believe it anyway."
Forgive if I misquoted slightly, but wow, I think what was an intense moment for me is something most politicians in the world (and kings of old, for that matter) have always just taken for granted...
Lost in the woods Chrisisall
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Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Sarge, I just saw Sin City, and a line from it really hit me:
" Real power is telling the biggest lie that everyone knows in their hearts isn't true, and makin' them believe it anyway."
Forgive if I misquoted slightly, but wow, I think what was an intense moment for me is something most politicians in the world (and kings of old, for that matter) have always just taken for granted...
Lost in the woods Chrisisall
Wow, love the quote !!
Thanks Chris
When my eloquence escapes you
My logic ties you up and rapes you
http://www.oldielyrics.com/lyrics/the_police/de_do_do_do_de_da_da_da.h
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Quote:
Originally posted by fivver:Quote:
the guy who beat Ortega was the owner and publisher of the opposition newspaper. Yep, there was such a thing - they tend to be in very short supply in communist countries.
Uh, actually the 'guy' who beat Ortega was Violeta Chamorro. Her husband Pedro had been assinated by Samoza in 1978. She took over running his newspaper La Prensa after he was killed. It was regularly censored or closed as the occasion warranted by Ortega. I guess our ideas of a free press differ.
Fivver, thanks for the correction - I'd forgotten the gender of the person who beat Ortega, and thank you also for pointing out that her husband was murdered by the same people who became, with the support of the White House, the "Contras". But I'd appreciate it if you didn't try to put words in my mouth, or that at least you'd read my post. I never even mentioned "free press". I said that there was an opposition newspaper. Tain't the same thing. Both Argentina and Chile (two countries that I've lived and worked in) had opposition newspapers during their military dictatorships (and god only knows that those weren't communist dictatorships), but nothing like a free press. I'm well aware of the difference. Further, I'm no apologist for any totalitarian regime, be it of the left, the right, or religious fundamentalist of any stripe or direction.
The whole point of my post was that Nicaragua was not a communist society, not by my definition or any of the four you posted. It's government was run by avowed communists for a time, but it never achieved anything like a communist state. And then its people rejected the avowed communists. The Sandinistas keep trying to come to power again through the ballot box, but it just ain't working. Democracy in action. And your suggestions that Carter, and every other Democrat who got involved(disclaimer - I'm not a Democrat) were there to keep democracy from happening and to prop up what you consider to have been a communist government are so amazing that I have to censor myself in the interest of civility.
perfessergee
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Basically Bush is a power-hungry war-mongerer, who would like nothing better than to bomb Iran, and unless the American public make it clear to him that if he does that, he will be despised as one of the worst Presidents in history (or something along those lines - best not mention the fact that he will anyway, at least by the rest of the world's standards), then he will set about it with a song in his heart. If you do, he may just set about it with a quiter song, maybe 'Pack up you troubles in you old kit-bag' as opposed to 'She'll be comin' round the mountain when she comes (yeehah!)' or something along those lines.
My point here is - unless the entire US nation comes out against it - Iran will probably be bombed.
Annoyingly my complete sheep of a PM, will probably join in rather than lose Bush as his bestest pally.
sorry, but it's likely to be true.
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Just to comment on what I take to be the original question. No, I don't think that the U.S. public in general believe that Pres. Bush will strictly speaking use force as a last resort. I also don't think that overall that this bothers the U.S. public that much. I think what would bother them would be if he would use the military without seriously considering other forms of response. So I think Bush will make some kind of show of considering other options before initiating a military response. I don't actually think at this time it would be his preferred response. IMO he would prefer to get away with saying "I sure don't want a fight, but I won't run if there needs to be one." without having to add another simultaneous force deployment. I don't take violent action by the U.S.A. toward Iran as a given but with the current administration it sure isn't implausible.
ISGABRIELRIGHT
Canadian Firefly fan since 2005 August 20
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