WIll we believe him again?
POSTED BY: SignyM
UPDATED: Monday, August 22, 2005 08:56
VIEWED: 11093
PAGE 11 of 12
Quote:But playing it down to North being just a 'rogue' NSC guy is altering the truth just a bit, don't you think?
Originally posted by SergeantX:I remember. I just found it more than a little ironic that you'd admit that such a thing had ever happened in light of your recent statements regarding US mistakes.
Iran-Contra hawk Chrisisall
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
But playing it down to North being just a 'rogue' NSC guy is altering the truth just a bit, don't you think?
Iran-Contra hawk Chrisisall
I dunno, not as long as I can refer to Bush as a 'rogue president guy'
SergeantX
"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by lynchaj:
LtCol North was a rogue NSC officer conducting illegal trade with Iran (F-14 & Hawk air defense parts) in exchange for help with US hostages held in Lebanon. Used the proceeds to fund the Contras in Nicaragua.
Congress was really ticked off. LtCol North broke the law and was invited to leave the military permanently.
One issue was the sale of parts. He sold them to Isreal and Isreal sold them to Iran. Why? Because it was illegal for the US to sell them to Iran. He was not charged or convicted with any crime relating to the sale. On a side note a number of hostages were released.
The other issue was the Contra rebels in Nicaraugua. Congress had shut off direct American aid. The CIA and NSC started an effort to fill the gap using private funds, most of which were provided directly from the personal accounts of King Faud of Saudi Arabia, who was a close personal friend of Ronald Reagan and dedicated to Reagan's effort to defeat global communism. When the Isreali arms dealers sold the parts to Iran they made a small profit. Rather then profit from the sale of weapons and subsequent release of hostages they donated the money to the private funds supporting the Contra rebels. This was the "diversion". Col. North was not charged with any crime relating to this either.
All this together became the Iran-Contra affair which was essentially an effort to trade arms for hostages and divert the proceeds to fund the Contras in defiance of Congress's Bolan Amendments. It was also hoped to begin the process of reopening the door to Iran so that the US could support moderate forces that existed in certain factions, like the Iranian Army for example. None of the acts in themselves was illegal.
North was charged with several counts of either contempt of Congress or lying under oath or both. He was convicted of one charge and that conviction overturned. North pointed out, with evidence, that while information on the Contras was withheld, it was due to the strange way that such information presented to certain Democratic congress persons kept winding up in the hands of the Nicaurauguan Commie government at the cost of the lives of numerous freedom fighters and some American agents.
Feels good to say "Commie" again.
H
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Wow, that was good. Attention to detail, I'm impressed.
But you forgot the ending. The U.S. trained Contras were scumbags who tortured and killed civilians who didn't go along with their political ideas(That's bad, right?), and we helped a bad government replace a bad one. What an achievement.
Waste of lives Chrisisall
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:
Feels good to say "Commie" again.
Someone over on the UB was trotting that one out in the Cindy Sheehan smear campaign. It's rather quaint, in it's own paranoid, old-coot, kind of way.
SergeantX
"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Wow, that was good. Attention to detail, I'm impressed.
But you forgot the ending. The U.S. trained Contras were scumbags who tortured and killed civilians who didn't go along with their political ideas(That's bad, right?), and we helped a bad government replace a bad one. What an achievement.
Waste of lives Chrisisall
Nice, succinct synopsis, but a few other items ought to be pointed out as well. As to the endgame, it should also be remembered that the Contras helped in their own financing (by running drugs - funny how the right wing conveniently forgets that). It should also be remembered that Iran/Contra was run from the White House, for heaven's sake. If it looks like and smells like official policy, the rational mind might conclude that it was official policy. And Bush The Elder's claim to have been out of the loop......well, use your own rational mind. (Please note, I said "rational mind", not "rationalizing mind" - there's a rather large difference).
And finally, the whole damned thing was utterly worthless. The Sandinistas did such a lousy job of running Nicaragua that they got voted out of office. Fancy that, a marxist government (sorry Hero, but Nicaragua was never a communist society by any conceivable definition of the word) that let itself be removed from power via a democratic process. And not in favor of ex-Contras, mind you - nobody wanted any part of those gentle folk - just non-marxist business people.
Chrisisall's "waste of lives" is a monumental understatement in this case.
Oh, and then there's Ollie having his conviction reversed on the proverbial technicality.
The whole thing was
perfessergee
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Thanks for filling in what I left out.
Hey, is it just me, or do I smell a rat in that the Iran hostages were released within hours of Regan becoming president?
Sounds like an under the table deal went on, didn't we give them weapons after the release (you know, through the usual channels) or something to complete the agreement the Regan administration's 'peeps' made w/them?
Fuzzy on that detail Chrisisall
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Fancy that, a marxist government (sorry Hero, but Nicaragua was never a communist society by any conceivable definition of the word) that let itself be removed from power via a democratic process.
Quote:
communism (From Merriam-Webster online dictionary)
2 capitalized a : a doctrine based on revolutionary Marxian socialism and Marxism-Leninism that was the official ideology of the U.S.S.R. b : a totalitarian system of government in which a single authoritarian party controls state-owned means of production c : a final stage of society in Marxist theory in which the state has withered away and economic goods are distributed equitably d : communist systems collectively
Sorry Perfessergee. That's one nit that won't pick. Communism and Marxism are twined like a strand of DNA.
As for why Danny Ortega allowed a free election, he made the mistake of believing his own press releases and actually thought he would win. A lot of people shared his delusion - Jimmy Carter, Bianca Jagger, the Birkenstock Bolshies and the mainstream media were all down there to cheer him on.
Quote:
Oh, and then there's Ollie having his conviction reversed on the proverbial technicality.
Yeah, how dare Oliver use up a technicality that should have rightfully gone to a murderer, rapist or child molester.
You conveniently forget that it was the dems in congress who (smelling Regan blood) granted him immunity - and it backfired.
One last point is that the democratic Boland amendment on which this whole thing hinged was probably illegal. The constitution clearly states that foreign policy is in the sphere of the executive not the legislative branch. The War Powers Act is another such one.
Fivver
NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by fivver:
As for why Danny Ortega allowed a free election, he made the mistake of believing his own press releases and actually thought he would win.
Or maybe he was just willing to respect the will of the people.
SergeantX
"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by fivver:Quote:
Fancy that, a marxist government (sorry Hero, but Nicaragua was never a communist society by any conceivable definition of the word) that let itself be removed from power via a democratic process.Quote:
communism (From Merriam-Webster online dictionary)
2 capitalized a : a doctrine based on revolutionary Marxian socialism and Marxism-Leninism that was the official ideology of the U.S.S.R. b : a totalitarian system of government in which a single authoritarian party controls state-owned means of production c : a final stage of society in Marxist theory in which the state has withered away and economic goods are distributed equitably d : communist systems collectively
Sorry Perfessergee. That's one nit that won't pick. Communism and Marxism are twined like a strand of DNA.
Fivver, sorry to rain on your parade, but I don't think you read my post carefully, and Nicaraguan society of the Sandinista era didn't match any of the 4 definitions you've pasted in.
a) a sociey is not a doctrine
b) and c) The Sandinistas might have wanted to pull these off, but they never did. Nicaragua still had private property aplenty - the guy who beat Ortega was the owner and publisher of the opposition newspaper. Yep, there was such a thing - they tend to be in very short supply in communist countries.
Failing a-c, it couldn't logically belong to d)
The Sandinistas may have been capital-C Communist wannabes, but they never got there. And now they're out of power and good riddance..........
perfessergee
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME