Real World Event Discussions

WIll we believe him again?

POSTED BY: SignyM
UPDATED: Monday, August 22, 2005 08:56
VIEWED: 11093
PAGE 6 of 12

SIGNYM

Monday, August 15, 2005 8:49 PM

Kind of reminds me of that Bush press conference when an intrepid reporter asked Mr Presdient if he had ever made a mistake, and Bush just sort of smiled and blinked and shifted from foot to foot. It's a dangerous person who has "never" made a mistake. Mistakes are a maor part of learning.

SIGNYM

Monday, August 15, 2005 9:23 PM

Quote:
Have you ever been proud of something the US done? Do you see the bogus premise of questions like that? It presumes your answer before even asking.

In case you're interested, the USA has done a LOT that I'm proud of- starting with the idea of a republic, setting up the inet (DARPA), landing on the moon, fighting in WWII... But since you think the question is bogus then I suppose my answer is bogus too. And anybody's answer to that question is also bogus. Even Bush's. Or alternatively it's a legitimate question and your logic is flawed. I suspect it's the logic at fault because the question is not pre-supposing an answer. (The answer could legitimately be yes or no.)

CHRISISALL

Monday, August 15, 2005 9:25 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by lynchaj:
So, see, even keeping the kooky leftists around is a virtue.
PS, Canardman says "Hi".

I am not in the strictest sense a leftist!!!
Kooky is debateable.
Canardman is R and TM to Chrisisallcorp. No use of this character without express written permission.
Oh, all right, you got it.

Now has The U.S. ever done wrong in your eyes?
The death of hundreds of innocent shanty town people in the capture of Noreaga (and the testing of the Stealth fighter)?
The straifing and killing of scores of non-military motorists on a major road during the Gulf War?
The whole Iran-Contra affair?
The dictators we backed to promote Democracies in Central America that strangly morphed into weird malevolent demons?

Mistakes are made by almost ALL countries, and we should be able to acknowledge our own in an attempt to NOT repeat them, as SeargentX said.

Come on already, okay Chrisisall

CHRISISALL

Monday, August 15, 2005 9:35 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by lynchaj:
Have you ever been proud of something the US done?

Our country's responce to the recent tsunami comes to mind. Minimum wage laws.
And, yeah, that moon thing. Nixon getting the boot.
Not too much in the war area comes to mind, I admit to disliking it enough to not be able to see whatever good it's done, apart from getting Hitler to make one good last decision...

Proud Chrisisall

SIGNYM

Monday, August 15, 2005 9:38 PM

Come into the light AJ... all of those knots will fall away... serenity will be yours ... all will be made clear... the paths to the starways will open to your mind...

Oh wait, who am I kidding? Hey, it's been fun but I know that tomorrow I'm going to double time to make up for all the chores I didn't do today. (I HATE chores, don't you?) Play nicely with each other. Ciao Chris, SargeX, HK, Gino and everyone (you too AJ).

FIVVER

Monday, August 15, 2005 9:40 PM

Whee, here's the link to the committees reports

http://hsgac.senate.gov/index.cfm?Fuseaction=Subcommittees.Home&Subcom
mitteeID=11&Initials=PSI

and here's the full text of a couple of previously posted quotes...

Quote:

Using SOMO and other Iraqi
records, Bayoil shipping documents, and U.S. Energy Information Administration import data,
the Subcommittee Minority Staff estimated that, during the period surcharges were collected, the
United States imported about 525 million barrels of Iraqi oil on which $118 million in illegal
-2-
surcharges were paid. That means U.S. imports financed about 52 percent of the illegal
surcharges paid to the Hussein regime. The Subcommittee Minority Staff has not seen evidence
showing that U.S. companies knowingly purchased Iraqi oil on which an illegal surcharge had
been paid; in fact, U.S. companies typically included a clause in their contracts requiring a seller
to provide a warranty that no surcharge had been paid. Countries in the rest of the world,
including Europe, Asia and Africa, imported about 475 million barrels for which about 48
percent of the illegal surcharges were paid, totaling about $110 million. Ultimately, all of the
surcharge payments went into the coffers of the Iraqi government, then under the control of
Saddam Hussein.
[\quote]

This one does go on to blast Bayoil who's CEO has now been INDICTED.

Quote:

The United States was not only aware of Iraqi oil sales which violated U.N. sanctions and
provided the bulk of the illicit money Saddam Hussein obtained from circumventing U.N.
sanctions. On occasion, the United States actually facilitated the illicit oil sales, as happened in
the Khor al-Amaya incident in 2003. This incident involves the largest single illicit sale of oil
transported by ship out of Iraq during the sanctions period. Over several weeks in February and
March 2003, Iraq loaded over 7 million barrels of oil onto 7 seagoing oil tankers at the port of
Khor al-Amaya in Southern Iraq. In exchange for this oil, the government of Jordan wired over
$53 million in hard currency to bank accounts under the control of the Hussein regime on the eve
of the American invasion. Each of these massive oil tankers docked at the Khor al-Amaya port,
filled its tanks with Iraqi oil, and traveled through the Persian Gulf, with the full knowledge and
acquiescence of the Maritime Interdiction Force, then under the command of a U.S. naval
officer. When word of these oil shipments hit the press and an outcry arose about this apparent
blatant violation of U.N. sanctions, the evidence indicates that the United States continue to
allow the shipments to proceed.
The oil loaded at Khor al-Amaya, which was supposedly intended to ensure an adequate
supply for Jordan during a possible war, was sold by the Jordanian government at a significant
profit.
[\quote]

Okay, pick your side on this one. I'll agree we turned a blind eye to this shipment in an (ultimately mistaken) attempt to help out Jordan, but 'facilitated' is way too strong a word.

Fivver

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SERGEANTX

Monday, August 15, 2005 10:54 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by lynchaj:
OK, to illustrate my point let me ask the reverse question...

Have you ever been proud of something the US done?

Well, sure, yeah. Lots of stuff. The Constitution, The moon landing, WWII, most of it anyway. The whole idea protecting individual liberties as the primary purpose of government was something that, even if we didn't think of, we made work better than anyone ever had.

Really most of the accomplishments of the US make me pretty damn happy to a part of it. Why do you think it pisses me off so much when people come along that want to tarnish that tradition?

It's fascinating to me that you seem to think this is a 'stumper' or something. What point are you trying to make?

Now, can you answer HK's question? Do you have a realistic picture of the US as a great, but fallible power? Do you recognize the need for due diligence in making sure we keep on the righteous course?

'Cause it doesn't seem like it. It seems like you value loyalty and blind support of our leaders above all else. Prove us wrong. It'd be damn comforting to know you do have limits - that you are, in theory at least, willing to fight to right your country when it is wrong.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

SERGEANTX

Monday, August 15, 2005 10:59 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by lynchaj:
That President Bush refused to answer such a loaded question indicates he saw the trap and sidestepped it. Wisely so.

I guess that's a matter of opinion. To me, and most of the people I know, not answering just made him seem like an insecure fool. Answering it would have shown a level of confidence and maturity that might have inspired some real faith in his leadership.

NEUTRINOLAD

Tuesday, August 16, 2005 12:49 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by lynchaj:
Quote:
Originally posted by HKCavalier:
I'm very curious, but I doubt that I'll get much of an answer, if any of y'all think the U.S. has ever done anything in our short 200 year stint on this planet for which we should be ashamed (that is other than the biggies like slavery--now I might put Hiroshima here and the genocide of the Native Americans, but there's some indication that posters here have found those actions justified). So is there anything that besmirches America's good name today, anything at all?

You are right about the first part, I'll doubt you'll get much of an answer either.

Why would anyone answer such a silly, self loathing, defeatist question? Talk about an loaded premise. Try "when did you stop beating your wife?" next time.

If you want to toss dirt on the US and besmirch her good name then do it yourself.

Andrew Lynch

Wow.
I mean Wow.
You aren't even trying.

The correct way that old chestnut is phrased is, "Have you stopped beating your wife?"
Because, see (I cannot believe I have to explain this), if you reply "No", it implies that you beat your wife. If "Yes" then it implies that you used to beat your wife. Both reflect poorly on your person upon answering, so it seems like there's no good way to answer the question posed.

Special bonus secret: The correct response is, "I see my friend is talking to himself again. We pray for him, and especially for his wife."

For one to conflate the one question with the other is either a pathetically weak defensive tactic or the result of a lack of facility with the language.

Either way, I pray for you lynchaj.
And especially for your wife.

CITIZEN

Tuesday, August 16, 2005 1:24 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by fivver:
Quote:

Posted by Signym:

The report also found that individuals and companies in the United States accounted for 52% of all oil-voucher kickbacks paid to Saddam Hussein. The largest of theses recipients, Houston based Bayoil and its CEO, Bay Chalmers have been indicted by the US Department of Justice for their actions.

Let's see. This is supposed to be some sort of argument for how corrupt GWB and his administration are. So we have this report that a private company was involved in kickbacks to Saddam and the CEO has been indicted by GWB's Justice Department. Now everyone else involved, in England, France, Russia and at the UN are wandering around free. In fact these people represent the rest of the world whose lead you want us to follow. I humbly suggest that you apply for a tuition refund for any logic courses you may have taken.

Fivver

Trust me I live in England, we're following your lead in so many ways its scary.
Furthurmore England (thats Britain to you guys who can't tell the difference) as far as I remember has not been implicated in the Food For Oil scandal. If I'm wrong sorry, and please supply me with a refrence so I can correct myself.
To be honest, America could do well to follow a great many European nations for social reforms, but hey, that would just be silly, socalism is just a silly leftys dream right.

Q: What do you have when you are holding two little green balls in your hand.
A: Kermit's undivided attention.