WIll we believe him again?
POSTED BY: SignyM
UPDATED: Monday, August 22, 2005 08:56
VIEWED: 11093
PAGE 4 of 12
Quote:
Originally posted by lynchaj:Quote:
Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:Quote:
Originally posted by lynchaj:
So President Bush has done *absolutely nothing* against Iran except for state the obvious -- being if Iran flouts its international agreements (ie, treaties it has willingly signed) and pursues nuclear arms it will be subject to UN SECURITY COUNCIL resolution
So by this logic, if the US flouts its international agreements ( as you say treaties it willingly signed ) it too should be subject to sanction...
Would that be correct ?
What no answer ?
When my eloquence escapes you
My logic ties you up and rapes you
http://www.oldielyrics.com/lyrics/the_police/de_do_do_do_de_da_da_da.h
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Would you please be a little more specific? Exactly what agreement(s) is/are the US flouting?
Andrew Lynch
So it matters what deal ?
No, your word is your bond kind of thing ?
Well lets go with a current example : The softwood lumber dispute between the US and Canada
http://vancouver.cbc.ca/regional/servlet/View?filename=bc_softwood-naf
ta20050810
http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/national/2005/08/13/softwood-nafta05081
3.html
Canada has gone to third party mediation over this trade dispute repeatly over the last decade, and time and time again the WTO, and NAFTA has ruled against the US. Dispite this, the US government continues to ignore these rulings ( which according to the argeements you signed are binding )
If you can't play by your own rules in a trade dispute, how much credibilty do you have when more important issues are at stake ?
And beyond that how can you attempt to hold other countrys to standards of conduct you are unwilling to live up to yourselves ?
When my eloquence escapes you
My logic ties you up and rapes you
http://www.oldielyrics.com/lyrics/the_police/de_do_do_do_de_da_da_da.h
tml
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The point is Bush is not a part of the negotiations, yet he or Condi Rice always seems to step in, shoot their mouths off and derail any progress made.
You say the Germans are " sabotage their own negotiations by unilaterally removing any threat of force "
I would say that they are being very careful not to provide the US any excuse to go off on Iran and try to point at any argeement they had anything to do with as a justification, even if they don't feel it is. You know, like you did with the Iraq WMD inspection crap...
If the EU-3 are negotiating and your not then shut up and stay out... If you want in then negotiate to get in
" known liars in Iran " as well as in the frigging White House. So what ?
When my eloquence escapes you
My logic ties you up and rapes you
http://www.oldielyrics.com/lyrics/the_police/de_do_do_do_de_da_da_da.h
tml
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Quote:
Originally posted by lynchaj:Quote:
Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
I would say that they are being very careful not to provide the US any excuse to go off on Iran and try to point at any argeement they had anything to do with as a justification, even if they don't feel it is. You know, like you did with the Iraq WMD inspection crap...
In other words, the Germans are negotiating to limit the UN responses in future to preclude military action, not to get Iran to stop enriching uranium. Great strategy.
They are worse than useless. They are enablers to terrorists. Hope the Europeans like living next door to a Iranian whackos with nukes. They deserve it.
Andrew Lynch
Who is to blame for that ?
Last time going into Iraq, the US and its supporter Britain had one interpretation of the resolution against Iraq, and the rest of the security council had another...
The US went ahead with what it wanted to do dispite the conflict in opinion, not even taking the issue to a final vote.... and then use the resolutions to which France, Russia and other who to this day disagree with you signed as justification.
It is a simple fact of live that now after these events, for any agreement to be forged... it will be clear to the point nobody can use it to their own ends against the wishes of the people who signed or negotiated the deal.
The same thing has happened in the Sudan negotiations... as a result of the US using the UN to go into Iraq.
When my eloquence escapes you
My logic ties you up and rapes you
http://www.oldielyrics.com/lyrics/the_police/de_do_do_do_de_da_da_da.h
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W/o going into great detail at the moment, I think the Germans et all would LOVE to give Bush a nice big steaming cup of STFU... but they can't.
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AJ- You're ignoring the fact the companies that made the MOST $$$ ignoring the sanctions were American. EVERYONE wants Iraq's oil, INCLUDING the United States. Pretending "they" are corrupt while "we" are pure is silliness at the grade-school level. Go back to your school-boy friends and exchange your silly school-boy stories with them, OK? On this board, where the grownups talk, it's embarassing.
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Quote:
Originally posted by lynchaj:
They are worse than useless. They are enablers to terrorists. Hope the Europeans like living next door to a Iranian whackos with nukes. They deserve it.
You
ing what? The Europeans deserve it!What is wrong with your silly little mind?
By your reasoning America 'deserved' 9/11 because America funded the actions of Osama Bin Laden amongst others when it suited American goals.
A great deal of money used to fund IRA bombs in Britain were paid for by money from people in the US.
So who exactly are 'enablers' of terroism?
They deserve it? Get a life.
Q: What do you have when you are holding two little green balls in your hand.
A: Kermit's undivided attention.
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Quote:That's a broad-brush view of Iran. And a comic-book viewpoint at best.
Seriously, what did they expect from a regime like the Iranians? Remember the ones who held US hostages for 444 days? They are psychotic!
Quote:Side note: A terrorist gains political ends by frightening civilian population. It is a tool for any cause: religious, economic, social. A jihadist is a Muslim fanatic but not necessarily a terrorist or an insurgent. An insurgent -in the case of Iraq- is someone who wants to overthrow the USA-established order and in this case is not likely a jihadist or even necessarily a terrorist.
It makes perfect sense for the Iranians to directly support the terrorists jihadists insurgents in Iraq.
Quote:One does not necessarily distract from the other. I'm sure the USA has enough experts to keep track of both. Specifically, how would messing up Iraq inhibit our military or political response to Iran? (I'm assuming that our plans are more towards bombing, not invasion.)
Here is the scenario from Iran's perspective: cause trouble in Iraq to keep the US preoccupied while Iran fires up its nuclear weapon industry.
Quote:Possible. But you would have to assume that Iran is already dissatisfied with the current Iraqi government and has made connection with a more radical Shiite movement. Best bet so far is that Iran- or an element w/in Iran- simply wants to drive the USA out of Iraq. This wouldn't be the first time that a nation rather short-sightedly made common cause with an element which proved troublesome later eg. the USA and the Taliban.
Simultaneously, destablize Iraq so that the US loses interest quicker and hopefully leaves Iraq so that the Iranians can join their Shia brethern and massacre the Sunnis in a civil war/pogrom.
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AJ- I see you brought your Cap'n America comics to the table. 
That is an old (OCT 2004) report which does not contain later information.
Quote:obviously an anti-Bush, anti-American witch hunt
The Senate Permanent Subcommittee on Investigations
Quote:Yes, Cap'n America will save us. (Pats little boy's head and looks worriedly at mom, wondering whether his boy really does need to be tested)
assigned to investigate the scandal has also concluded that "The United States (government) was not only aware of Iraqi oil sales which violated UN sanctions and provided the bulk of the illicit money Saddam Hussein obtained from circumventing UN sanctions. On occasion, the United States actually facilitated the illicit oil sales."
The report also found that individuals and companies in the United States accounted for 52% of all oil-voucher kickbacks paid to Saddam Hussein. The largest of theses recipients, Houston based Bayoil and its CEO, Bay Chalmers have been indicted by the US Department of Justice for their actions.
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Well, I'v had my dose of ad hominem for today AND my fill of talking nonsense, so I'm going to hijack my own thread and bring up another topic.
China's been awfully nice to us lately. In the past month or so they've pulled their Unocal offer, revalued the yuan, and (possibly) pushed N Korea to the bargaining table. For a nation that holds a lot of USA cards (Treasuries, manufacturing capacity, currency) that seems awfully accomodating. Much as I'd like to believe that the Chinese care about us and the state of the world, somehow I don't think so. Either they've been threatened with something, or offered something. And thoughts?
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The paint is peeling. Everyday I talk to more and more EX-Bush supporters who have finally seen where he is taking us. They're seeing something that is distincly UN-American and nowhere they want to be. They aren't likely to vote Democrat any time soon, and frankly I can't blame them, but the lock step march of the true believers is grinding to a halt.
SergeantX
"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock
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