It's called

POSTED BY: rue
UPDATED: Monday, August 15, 2005 19:31
VIEWED: 3230
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RUE

Saturday, August 13, 2005 3:16 AM

They’ve never had it so good. It never happened. It was just a book. It was just pranks. No one died. No one in charge knew. They're all terrorists. Saddam was worse. The Taliban was worse.

And Bush's favorite: it's not policy, it's rogue soldiers.

Even though it was shortened severely, this is a very long post. The temptation is to skip past the words and just read the headines. Try to read some of the more extended quotes. They describe in brutal detail the things that were done to prisoners, event by event, hour to hour, day by day. Relentless beatings are only a small part of the story, but the part that was the most frequent cause of death.

Summarized. Some links may not be active.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2005/08/12/MNG7UE6
R0J1.DTL

Don't show photos, top brass says Abu Ghraib images would threaten security
Julia Preston, New York Times
Friday, August 12, 2005
Senior Pentagon officials have opposed the release of photographs and videotapes of the abuse of inmates at Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq.
The documents reveal both the high level and the determination of the Pentagon officials engaged in the effort to block the disclosure of the images, and their alarm at the prospect the photos might become public.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/08/national/nationalspecial3/08bagram.h
tml?th&emc=th
August 8, 2005
Abuse Cases Open Command Issues at Army Prison
By TIM GOLDEN
FORT BLISS, Tex., Aug. 4 - .. Last October, a final report by the Criminal Investigation Command of the Army recommended charges against 27 soldiers and officers. It said both deaths (at Bagram, Afghanistan) were primarily caused by severe trauma to the men's legs. (Described as being equivelent to having been run over by a bus by the ME.)
Along with other information that has emerged, trial testimony has underscored a question long at the core of this case: what is the responsibility of more senior military personnel for the abuses that took place?
(Some officers) said some of the methods that prosecutors have cited as a basis for criminal charges, including chaining prisoners to the ceilings of isolation cells for long periods, were either standard practice at the prison or well-known to those who oversaw it.

And in detail:
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article8918.htm
May 20, 2005
In U.S. Report, Brutal Details of 2 Afghan Inmates' Deaths
By TIM GOLDEN

Even as the young Afghan man was dying before them, his American jailers continued to torment him.

The prisoner, a slight, 22-year-old taxi driver known only as Dilawar, was hauled from his cell at the detention center in Bagram, Afghanistan, at around 2 a.m. to answer questions about a rocket attack on an American base. When he arrived in the interrogation room, an interpreter who was present said, his legs were bouncing uncontrollably in the plastic chair and his hands were numb. He had been chained by the wrists to the top of his cell for much of the previous four days.

Mr. Dilawar asked for a drink of water, and one of the two interrogators, Specialist Joshua R. Claus, 21, picked up a large plastic bottle. But first he punched a hole in the bottom, the interpreter said, so as the prisoner fumbled weakly with the cap, the water poured out over his orange prison scrubs. The soldier then grabbed the bottle back and began squirting the water forcefully into Mr. Dilawar's face.

"Come on, drink!" the interpreter said Specialist Claus had shouted, as the prisoner gagged on the spray. "Drink!"

At the interrogators' behest, a guard tried to force the young man to his knees. But his legs, which had been pummeled by guards for several days, could no longer bend. An interrogator told Mr. Dilawar that he could see a doctor after they finished with him. When he was finally sent back to his cell, though, the guards were instructed only to chain the prisoner back to the ceiling.

"Leave him up," one of the guards quoted Specialist Claus as saying.

Several hours passed before an emergency room doctor finally

SEVENPERCENT

Saturday, August 13, 2005 4:53 AM

Seriously, what do you expect from this thread, Rue? The minute the wingnuts see what you posted in this thread, one of two things will happen:
1) The spin machine to make all those facts look inconsequential will begin in earnest, and before you know it the thread will be completely off-topic, or
2) The wingnuts will just put their collective hands over their collective internet ears and shout "LALALALALA I CAN'T HEAR YOU, IT'S A FRAT PRANK LALALALALALA"

Those of us that knew there was going to be trouble when the administration (particularly our new AG) said that the Geneva Convention was irrelevant predicted stuff like this was going to happen. The rest are so firmly in the administration's pocket that GW could gun down a busload of nuns on Constitution Avenue at high noon on a sunday and they would find a way to justify it. If people haven't woken up by now, I don't think this thread is going to do it.

I mean, really- we have people in this country actually justifying torture or nuking civilians so that we can "win." Let me say this: When we are telling ourselves that mercy, compassion, honesty, and restraint are unnecessary and unwanted, I assure you- we've already "lost."

------------------------------------------
He looked bigger when I couldn't see him.

SERGEANTX

Saturday, August 13, 2005 6:03 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SevenPercent:
I mean, really- we have people in this country actually justifying torture or nuking civilians so that we can "win." Let me say this: When we are telling ourselves that mercy, compassion, honesty, and restraint are unnecessary and unwanted, I assure you- we've already "lost."

But the question remains. Can we bring it back? Is it too late? Obviously Rue is thinking we can or there'd be no point in posting this. People will wake up, if they do, one person at a time. I think it's worth fighting for myself and as much as people might say posting on a message board is pointless. I disagree. Working out these ideas and debating them changes minds. If not here, then somewhere else where we might use what we've learned here.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

SIGNYM

Saturday, August 13, 2005 6:37 AM

I heard recently that among the photos and videotapes of Abu Ghraib that were NOT released (remember- we were allowed to see only the least offensive) were pix of children being raped in fron of their parents.

RUE

Saturday, August 13, 2005 7:21 AM

I posted it b/c there's been a lot of news over the months that undeniably demonstrate: it was torture. It was as brutal, brutalizing, perverse .... as anything the Taliban or Hussein practiced. It was at GITMO, Bagram, Abu Ghraib, rendition countries, and other places not mentioned by name. And it was on purpose, by policy.

I don't expect agreement, and I'm not going to be wasting my time debating this either.

I only posted to hold up a mirror: that maybe those folks for whom torture was all just fine might catch a candid glimpse of what they approve. In the hopes of achieving just a split second recognition of unposed, unrehearsed --- truth. Before the eyes glaze over and the mind gets busy remembering all the spin it is supposed to think.

Nearly everything I know I learned by the grace of others.

CHRISISALL

Saturday, August 13, 2005 5:03 PM

This is all made up. The documents were all falsified, the pictures all photoshopped. This is all part of an anti-American plot to weaken us further. It is insideous and widespread. It is well co-ordinated. It is a left wing conspiracy.

But wait. The right wing doesn't believe in conspiracies.

So if it's not a conspiracy, it must be....true...

So now the right wing thinkers have a choice: is this acceptable, or not?

Let's not BS with the 'things like this happen' crap. Time to call it. Is this what America should be doing? Is this what we stand for?

if your answer is yes Chrisisall

SERGEANTX

Saturday, August 13, 2005 5:41 PM

I keep thinking of the Pink Floyd song "On the Turning Away".

Damn Rue, what'd you have to go and post this for? Nevermind I know why. .... and thank you.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

AURAPTOR

Saturday, August 13, 2005 6:02 PM

Sorry, it's not torture..

When asking what REAL torture is, ask yourself these questions...

How many men had their hands crudely removed by 'doctors', and video taped for the aproval of President Bush? None ? You're right.

How many men were fed feet first into industrial sized chippers ? None? You're right again.

See, we'll agree there are some sick puppies who got caught doing things they might not should have done. Those folks will get punished. Unlike the folks who sawed off body parts for Saddam.

But remember, many of these folks have had years of brutal training in terrorist camps, to endure all sorts of questioning. They want to kill you and your loved ones. So, don't feel too much pity for them.

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

SIGNYM

Saturday, August 13, 2005 6:13 PM

The point well-made by a previous poster (and I forget who- my apologies) is: Are we letting the standard of our behavior be determined by the lowest of the low? As long as we're "not as bad as {fill in the blank}" we're OK?

Hmmm... I thought right-wingers didn't believe in moral relativism? Oh, but who am I kidding? Morals are a mere convenience at that end of the political spectrum. Let's yelp about abortion and bomb the snot out of babies. Let's not teach Darwinism is science but set it up in society. Truth is whatever gets the job done. Let's bray about liberty while we round up, detain and torture the innocent along with the guilty. Terri Schiavo deserved every last gasp attempt but if you don't have health insurance, may as well die in a diabetic coma.

I'm sorry if this sounds harsh, but I'm tired of the rationalizing, finessing and sheer out-and-out schizophrenia of the right-wing mind . Y'all remind me of nothing more than a bunch of .... Boy, you really don't want me to say what. And then we wonder why "they" hate us so much.

SERGEANTX

Saturday, August 13, 2005 6:22 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Sorry, it's not torture..

Come on... If you want to point out that we're not as bad as the examples you cite, if you want to argue that this is not supported by our leadership, I'll listen. But to say this isn't torture?? Let me ask you this. Are the incidents at Abu Ghraib something that you would stand by and let happen if you had the power to stop them?

Quote:
But remember, many of these folks have had years of brutal training in terrorist camps, to endure all sorts of questioning. They want to kill you and your loved ones. So, don't feel too much pity for them.

But many of them aren't terrorists. We've been broad in our efforts to make sure we get most of the bad guys, which I believe is the right thing to do in wartime. But that means we've almost certainly swept up many who aren't terrorists. Maybe we can't know for sure until we torture it out of them, but isn't that a road we'd rather not go down?

At this point we have a real problem with all the unreleased documentation of abuses. The reactions of the congressmen (and even Rumsfeld) indicate that the unreleased stuff is much worse than what we've seen. And what we've seen is bad enough. The dilemma is that releasing this stuff will provoke moral outrage both in this country and abroad. It could get our soldiers killed. But not releasing it leaves people to their imaginations, which might be even worse. The decision not to release leads me to believe they've concluded we're better off left imagining what might have happened. Is the reality of it really that gruesome?

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

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