It's called
POSTED BY: rue
UPDATED: Monday, August 15, 2005 19:31
VIEWED: 3230
PAGE 3 of 4
Quote:Well Hero finally said something I can agree with. The US put a stop to Hussein. Too bad it took up his torture predilictions.
That is absolutely true. Saddam's people reularly used the facility for all sorts of torture including what you described.
Thank God we liberated Iraq and put a stop to it.
But it goes beyond Abu Ghraib. None of the detailed stories posted were from there. Two were at Bagram, one at US forward base at Qaim, and one in Guantanamo and Egypt.
You need to brush up on your geography.
And Hero, I did you a favor responding to you. Most people have written you off as a troll.
Nearly everything I know I learned by the grace of others.
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Many are assuming that the bulk of the abuses are being investigated and prosecuted when appropriate. It's hard to know how valid that assumption is, but it seems obvious they're not addressing the overall policy decisions that may have led to this.
The Jags warned the Bush administration in no uncertain terms that pulling back from the Geneva conventions, even a little, would present a real danger of the kind of abuses we're seeing. Those warnings were disregarded quite deliberately at the highest levels of the executive branch and someone should be held accountable. Unfortunately, taking responsibility for mistakes in judgement hasn't been a hallmark of this administration.
EDIT: to add- More importantly the administration needs to make clear and demonstrable changes in the policy to set things right. But since that would require the aforementioned acceptance of responsibility, this isn't likely to happen either. How in the world can people hold Bush's crew up as the moral alternative???
SergeantX
"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock
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Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM: I heard recently that among the photos and videotapes of Abu Ghraib that were NOT released (remember- we were allowed to see only the least offensive) were pix of children being raped in fron of their parents.
Hero: That is absolutely true. Saddam's people reularly used the facility for all sorts of torture including what you described. Thank God we liberated Iraq and put a stop to it.
Warning- Flamebait
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Quote:Auraptor- since torture occurred at (as far as I can tell) ALL detention centers in US control, then there was either an INEXCUSABLE breakdown in discipline across the board which merits immediate attention, or it resulted from policy. Which is it?
I'm not excusing what a few ( yes,few ) rogue soldiers/civilian contractors did. They thankfully were caught and will be punished. As they should be. We'll agree on that.
But to paint w/ a over sized brush that the U.S. is no different than what Saddam did, or that such horrific acts are representitive of who we are as a people, then I've gotta call BULL.
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Quote:
Auraptor- since torture occurred at (as far as I can tell) ALL detention centers in US control, then there was either an INEXCUSABLE breakdown in discipline across the board which merits immediate attention, or it resulted from policy. Which is it?
I can't presume that any 'torture' has occurred in all facilities. Where crimes have occured though, those involved should be punished. We'll agree there.
There are jails and prisons here in the U.S. Every once in a while, a story comes out about how som guards mistreated a prisoner. We'll agree that the guards should be punished. But what of his boss? Punish the captain of the guards? What about the Warden? What of the Superintendent of Prisons? And the Gov? Oh, maybe all the way up to the President? I hpe you see how ridiculous this issue can become.
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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Auraptor,
Do you acknowledge the changes in policy that marginalized the Geneva Conventions? When our leaders are openly pushing for more aggressive interogation techniques, openly question the traditional restrictions on torture that we helped formulate, don't you think that is going create an atmosphere where these abuses are more likely? If these decisions hadn't been made, I'd agree with you, it's ridiculous to hold high level officers and political leaders responsible for the depraved acts of individual soldiers.
But there's damn good reason to believe that the changed interrogation directives had a lot to do with the abuses. It's not just some liberal attack or conspiracy theory.
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05196/538359.stm
This really needs to be fixed, regardless of which side you're on. It's not about smearing the president, or the military. We need to reign this in before we've lost all credibility worldwide. It's bad enough as it is.
SergeantX
"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock
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Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
Well Hero finally said something I can agree with. The US put a stop to Hussein. Too bad it took up his torture predilictions.
The US made torture the exception rather the the rule. We further enforce the Uniform Code of Military Justice against those caught engaging in such illegal actions. Under Saddam and the Taliban, such actions were legal and as regular and common as traffic court is here in the US.
Quote:
But it goes beyond Abu Ghraib. None of the detailed stories posted were from there. Two were at Bagram, one at US forward base at Qaim, and one in Guantanamo and Egypt.
I agree. We need to make sure our people obey the rule of law regardless of where such violations occur.
It may surprise you but as a lawyer I completely disagree with this notion of denying an enemy combatant civil rights simply because they are either a foriegn citizen or are held outside the US (like in Gitmo). The Constitution makes no such distinction. It says all "persons" not all citizens and makes referance to being within the "power" of the United States, not merely in its borders.
I disagree with certain notions of providing detainees with the same level of access to the courts as those of us here in the US. Seems to me we could, however, do a better job of achieving an equitable balance between their rights as persons and the necessity of war.
Quote:
And Hero, I did you a favor responding to you. Most people have written you off as a troll.
Your too good to me. If I stopped writting simply because other disagree with me, that just wouldn't be right.
I have in the past had very fruitful discussions with most of the left-leaning members of the board, discussions that I greatly appreciate. Its only one or two that seem to have a consistant problem allowing others to disagree with them.
Minority opinions such as mine on some issues and yours on others both serve vital roles in the political discourse. We should encourage them and each other no matter how wrong you turn out to be (ha ha).
H
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Auraptor-
Quote:I guess this means that we are at least past the point where you recognise that torture has occurred at least at SOME facilities. Well, that's progress I guess
I can't presume that any 'torture' has occurred in all facilities. Where crimes have occured though...
Quote:etc. The answer is- yes. I'm a supervisor and if my staff screws up it's my fault as well. And if my staff screws up a LOT then it's my manager's fault for not keeping ME on-track, and so on up the line. It's somewhere between "the buck stops here" and "total quality management" and it goes doubly for the military which has much stronger internal authority than any civilian organization. And if you were to tell me that the problem was with reservists and civilian contractors, then I would ask- who was responsible for bringing reservists and civilian contractors into the war in such a big way in the first place? (Rumsfeld)
There are jails and prisons here in the U.S. Every once in a while, a story comes out about how som guards mistreated a prisoner. We'll agree that the guards should be punished. But what of his boss? Punish the captain of the guards? What about the Warden? What of the Superintendent of Prisons?
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Mohrstoutbeard: Awesome Dylan reference- I laughed out loud when I saw it -
Now on to business - I rest my case Rue, in what I said at the beginning of your thread- Auraptor basically came out and said that beating someone to death was a deranged act, but wasn't torture, because beating someone to death is only toture if it happens under someone else's regime- It's those kinds of perfect 10 scoring mental gymnastics that let our gov't get away with stuff like that -
And whoever it was that said it, Signy or Sarge- I agree 100% with you - When employees consistently or flagrantly violate rules, they aren't the only ones fired in the real world - Their bosses and often their bosses' bosses are fired as well- Someone is supposed to be watching them- So how is it that when this goes on in the military, it isn't the responsibility of the higher ups for some reason? Where were their comanding officers when this was going on? Answer: There is no (and probably never will be any) accountability in this administration, especially since the admin's most ardent supporters continue to believe that what we are doing is acceptable-
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He looked bigger when I couldn't see him.
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Quote:
Originally posted by SevenPercent:
...the admin's most ardent supporters continue to believe that what we are doing is acceptable.
This is key. I think 9/11 really tipped the balance for a lot of people. And I can honestly understand why, but it's not good. I really think, that for many, "Kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out" has become more than just hyperbole. They won't, usually, be willing to say this out loud, but I do think a great many of them know that what we're doing is wrong and they just don't care. They think it's justifiable revenge or somesuch.
If I'm right, it means the terrorists really have been able to damage our society deeply. I keep hoping it will be self-correcting at some point. I hope we can turn it around before we do a complete nosedive into fascism. But I don't know.
SergeantX
"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock
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