Let the people of Iraq decide.
POSTED BY: SergeantX
UPDATED: Friday, August 12, 2005 23:45
VIEWED: 6250
PAGE 2 of 9
Any poll at any time shows that 90%+ Iraqis agree on one thing: They want USA soldiers out of Iraq. What might happen if the USA just left?
The first thing is that the foreign fighters in Iraq would no longer have a reason to blow themselves up. After that, you would have to consider what the current Shiite government (heavily inflitrated by Al Sadr loyalists) would do without continuing support from the USA. The worst-case scenario is that Iran steps in to help the Shiites, and that surrounding Sunni groups continue to bolster Iraqi Sunnis, drawing outside parties into what is essentially a civil war.
But the best case scenario- one that the USA could put it's weight behind- is that without USA support (and that includes w/drawing all the "security" contractors that are currently assisting the government- directed paramilitary police) is that the government reconsitute itself to give the Sunnis a meaningful place at the table and reverse the process of de-Baathification. (Don't forget, in the process of de-Baathification, Sunni engineers, doctors, and non-officer enlisted lost their jobs.)
In addition, the government could reverse many of the onerous terms that were imposed on it by Bremer. Until/ unless that is done, the Shiite government will rightly be seen as a USA puppet.
One of the reasons why the Iraqis (and others) don't believe that the USA will w/draw is because thr USA is in the process of building permanent military bases. Halting construction would be a postive step.
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Signy
Quote:And again ...
One of the reasons why the Iraqis (and others) don't believe that the USA will w/draw is because the USA is in the process of building permanent military bases.
Nearly everything I know I learned by the grace of others.
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Quote:Thank you, SevenPercent, for the most powerful quote on this thread. We need to hear more from you.
Originally posted by SevenPercent:
Herman Goering at the Nuremberg trials
Chrisisall
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Sometimes Hero slips a few cogs. Meaning no disrespect, and ignoring the flame-bait about liberals, the guy who in one thread can opt to nuke'em till they glow
Quote:without regard to guilt, innocence or even effectiveness suddenly turns into a conscience-stricken liberal (with apologies to conscience-stricken liberals) about dead Iraqis and dead babies in this one.
I would support both the threat, the demonstration (the destruction of one or two Iranian cities) and, if they prove to be so much more foolish then Japan, the execution of the threat by the systematic and complete eradication of the Arab world
Quote:I mean... DANG! I'm in awe on this one! The ethical gymnastics are impressive!
If we left {Iraq} tomorrow would there be more dead Iraqis or less? There'd be more......and baby-murderers
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Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Sometimes Hero slips a few cogs.
Ha! You don't know the half of it. There was this one time, in traffic court...but I digress.
Quote:
the guy who in one thread can opt to nuke'em till they glowQuote:
I would support both the threat, the demonstration (the destruction of one or two Iranian cities) and, if they prove to be so much more foolish then Japan, the execution of the threat by the systematic and complete eradication of the Arab world
Wow, thats I good quote. I can turn me a phrase when I wants it I can.
Quote:
without regard to guilt, innocence or even effectiveness suddenly turns into a conscience-stricken liberal (with apologies to conscience-stricken liberals) about dead Iraqis and dead babies in this one.Quote:I mean... DANG! I'm in awe on this one! The ethical gymnastics are impressive!
If we left {Iraq} tomorrow would there be more dead Iraqis or less? There'd be more......and baby-murderers
You think my ethical gymnastics are amazing, you should see me in bed, which is a line I used on a certain stripper/lawyer micro-miniskirted business suit chick I convicted of a traffic violation the other day.
The two ideas are not as contradictory as first imagined. The ultimate cause is the winning of the war, just as it was in the Second World War. I believe that the millions of Germans and Japanese, the women, children, laborers, farmers, and conscripted soldiers; these people suffered painful death, witnessed devestation, and suffered gross indignaties at the hands of the Allies. It is true that those responsible, the leaders of those beligerant nations and not the Aliies, were ultimately brought to justice of one kind or another. But the foundation of the American democratic ideal that has since liberated most of the world is the notion of liberty and fundamental to the notion of liberty is that power, true power within a state originates from the consent of the people. So in order for the people of the Islamic world to change we must support and protect their first steps in a world of their own choosing (Iraq) and yet be prepared to allow them to reap the consequences of the world they have allowed to evolve (Iran). So its not any great leap to bounce between one position and another. Its more like a ship charting its way past rocks on one side and shoals on the other, yet never waivering from its ultimate course, liberty for all.
H
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A few minor corrections?
Quote:Actually, it's a French Enlightenement ideal, stated most clearly in The Social Contract (Jean Jacques Rousseau).
But the foundation of the American democratic ideal that has since liberated most of the world is the notion of liberty and fundamental to the notion of liberty is that power, true power within a state originates from the consent of the people.
Quote:Your answer is pretty much as I thought it would be. Nuking the Islamic world has nothing to do with defense against terrorism as you've claimed in many other threads. Your basic motivation is really to impose your views by any means possible, including the death of millions. So you'll forgive me if each time you bring up the whole "defense against terrorism" argument I slap on a big "red herring" sticker? In the whole ends/ means spectrum I guess that makes you no worse than the average terrorist who only wants to make us all pure in the eyes of God.
The ultimate cause is the winning of the war {of liberty for all}...
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Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Actually, it's a French Enlightenement ideal, stated most clearly in The Social Contract (Jean Jacques Rousseau).
No, its an American ideal. All credit to Rousseau for writing it down, but Americans made it work. The French have yet to get it right.
Quote:
Your basic motivation is really to impose your views by any means possible, including the death of millions. So you'll forgive me if each time you bring up the whole "defense against terrorism" argument I slap on a big "red herring" sticker? I guess that makes you no worse than the average terrorist who only wants to make us all pure in the eyes of God.
There is a big difference between those who seek the liberation of the soul and those who seek its enslavement. We do not seek to impose American ideals nor do we advocate the use of "any means possible". We believe that all persons great and small are endowed by their creator (be it God, Allah or just Mom and Dad) with certain rights these include, but are not limited to life, liberty, and the right to watch Serenity in theaters a few weeks hence.
You cannot impose something that was always there. But you can help it thrive by reaching out our hand in friendship to those who have known only oppression. But ultimate responsibility remains with the individual. If there were no America, it is the responsibity of each person to secure the blessings of their own liberty, thus the Iranian people must be willing to accept the consequences of what they have allowed their nation to do. Iran is a friend of terror and it is the policy of this nation to sow our mighty warmaking power on those who attack us and any who support them.
Iran could be free today and a valued ally had their people but the will.
Its not any means necessary. We wait and we pray and we hope and we stand ready. God willing we wont have to go. As for nukes, they are as they have always been, the last resort. I know they scare you, I feel sorry it is tbe way it is. But we must stand ready with all the power we have lest we face a day when what power we have is not enough to preserve our own liberty, much less that of our allies.
H
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Quote:The religious would say that THEY are seeking to liberate souls but you are trying to enslave them. You're both more than ready to liberate people from their bodies. The only difference is that you have the word "liberty" on your lips and they have the word "Allah".
There is a big difference between those who seek the liberation of the soul and those who seek its enslavement
Red herring alert!
Quote:You were ready to nuke Iran whether or not they had anything to do with an attack on the USA. You can dance around all you want, but you're convicted by your own words. Until you acknowledge your own impulses and/ or recognize the deep contradictions in your own statements, you're just not worth responding to.
But we must stand ready with all the power we have lest we face a day when what power we have is not enough to preserve our own liberty, much less that of our allies.
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So to sum up, most of you think we should stay in Iraq and teach them the fundamentals of democracy, even after they vote for us to leave (assuming we ever allowed a vote)?
SergeantX
"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock
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Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:
You cannot impose something that was always there. But you can help it thrive by reaching out our hand in friendship to those who have known only oppression.
Ah, that's beautiful. Who'd have thought reaching out our hand would have such a death toll?
Chrisisall is right, give Hero a radio show, he's way funnier than Rush.
Hero, you're a national treasure!
HKCavalier
Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.
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