Let the people of Iraq decide.
POSTED BY: SergeantX
UPDATED: Friday, August 12, 2005 23:45
VIEWED: 6250
PAGE 4 of 9
Quote:As are we.
I'm a patriot.
PS Do you think you have a lock on anguish or love of country? That somehow we are all dilettante rich, slackers, bad at our jobs or willfully unemployed in order to live on the dole, and tax cheats because some of us are liberals, independents or (gasp) progressives?
WHAT AN ASS YOU ARE.
When you stop your little self-righteous parade and start to talk to the rest of us like we are real actual worthy people, just as worthy as you, maybe the personal attacks will stop.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:
Then, knowing the message of love, anger, and frustration would act as a lightning rod for those whose guilt runs so deep I sent it anyway.
You're a real piece of work, Hero. You manage to work in a great ad hominem along with your blistering appeals to emotion and appeals to patriotism, and I know you know what those are since you are apparently a lawyer. You attacked us first in this thread, all of us that "aren't as patriotic as you are" because the way we interpret the facts differs from the way you do. You did not bring up the deaths of those boys for sympathy for their families and friends; you used them to try to make all of us that didn't share your opinions look like bad people. It didn't work, we called you on it, and now you're trying it again; and again I'm going to call you on it.
Do I feel guilty about the deaths? Maybe I do, but not in the way you think I should. I feel guilty that maybe if I had written more letters, got more people to the polls in 2k and 2k4, that we wouldn't be in this mess. Maybe I should have donated more money to MoveOn, or to the DNC, so that this wouldn't have happened.
No, I think the real guilty feelings come from you. You voted for Bush, you supported his policies, and now what he has done has struck close to home, and you have to blame someone. But blaming Bush only makes you feel guilty for putting him in power, so you blame us instead. That way, it's someone else's fault, and if we were more patriotic, this wouldn't have happened. It's like a faith healer saying the boy in the crowd won't walk again because someone in the audience is an unbeliever, when in fact the guy on stage is a con man.
You want to show us what kind of guy you are by telling us about the little things you do every day. You go to church, you watch football, you're an average joe and we're all elitists who never do any real work. Please. I go to church, I watch football (the Jets, in case anyone wonders; we're boned this year- tough schedule and we shouldn't have let the Raiders have Jordan), I have a tough job that is also very rewarding with far less pay than I bet you get. But I can see which way the facts line up, and who gets paid to make the big decisions, and it's GWB. Remember TR? 'The Buck stops here?' I blame GWB because he is the ultimate man responsible for current US foreign policy. Why is criticizing the gov't suddenly a treasonous offense?
Quote:
Gotta go, the memorial service starts in an hour. Forgive me if I fail to pass on your regards.
Of course you won't. Because only you can really care, right? And in my opinion, based on the way you used those people's memories the way you did?
All you're doing is putting on another show.
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He looked bigger when I couldn't see him.
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Hero, one of my friends is in Iraq right now as I type. He might die over there. He's doing his duty to the best of his (considerable) ability.
If he comes home safe, this war still sucks.
If he dies it sucks, I'll just cry more and feel badly, but you gotta be objective. It's NOT about freedom for Iraq, or fighting terrorism. Belief or not in Bush aside, all the troops deserve to have our respect.
Bush deserves to be impeached.
And you need to be shaken, by a real big fella, hard. Bush got your friends killed. He might do the same for me.
Please wake up.
In the end, it's scarier not to.
Good luck with your radio show, though Chrisisall
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Hey everyone. I can't help noticing that the folks who write in criticizing Hero for exploiting the deaths of his friends to make his point are the same people who critisize Hero for all his posts. Does that seem right to you? Are you really writing in because you are offended by his latest posts, or are you writing in because you've found his vulnerable spot and you want to get him? Please, I don't want an answer, just think about it.
Maybe we should slow down a bit when a man posts about the deaths of his friends. I'm no fan of Hero's opinions or his tactics, but kicking a man, even a very rude man, when he's down isn't what you mean to do is it?
Hero, I'm very sorry to hear about the deaths of so many young men whom you cared about. That's a lot to carry. Maybe you could start a new thread to honor them, so folks don't think it's just another one of your rhetorical tactics.
HKCavalier
Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.
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Quote:
Originally posted by HKCavalier:
Maybe we should slow down a bit when a man posts about the deaths of his friends.
Yeah, I forgot to say that I felt sorry, too.
And I really do think he should replace Rush Chrisisall
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Quote:I will supply an answer. I am TRULY offended by his posts. His relentless backhanded slaps at those who disagree with him and concurrent exploitation of the war's tragedies are beyond honor.
Are you really writing in because you are offended by his latest posts, or are you writing in because you've found his vulnerable spot and you want to get him? Please, I don't want an answer, just think about it.
When it comes to death, I rarely speak of the topic, never exploit grief to support an unrelated argument, and never, but never, presume on the opinions of the dead just because they are dead and can't defend their own views. (As if it is his right to presume and their job to explain.)
Hero has somehow managed to do all three - oh, and not coincidentally try to polish his own image with the same handy topic.
Nearly everything I know I learned by the grace of others.
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Quote:
Originally posted by HKCavalier:
Hey everyone. I can't help noticing that the folks who write in criticizing Hero for exploiting the deaths of his friends to make his point are the same people who critisize Hero for all his posts. Does that seem right to you? Are you really writing in because you are offended by his latest posts, or are you writing in because you've found his vulnerable spot and you want to get him? Please, I don't want an answer, just think about it.
Maybe we should slow down a bit when a man posts about the deaths of his friends. I'm no fan of Hero's opinions or his tactics, but kicking a man, even a very rude man, when he's down isn't what you mean to do is it?
Hero, I'm very sorry to hear about the deaths of so many young men whom you cared about. That's a lot to carry. Maybe you could start a new thread to honor them, so folks don't think it's just another one of your rhetorical tactics.
B]
You don't want an answer, but I will respond, since I am, admittedly, the one being the most critical. It is only as of late that I have gotten involved with the RWED board here on FFF, especially given the length of time I have been a member of the community. And, really, it is only because of some heated conversations that I have been having in my own circle of friends about these same topics that I have been posting to begin with.
Since I don't usually post, it is unfair to say that the people being critical are the ones that are critical of him constantly. That isn't true in my case, since I was never critical of him before. I can assure you 100% that Hero drew my anger because I felt he was using the deaths of people in his town as a rhetorical tactic against the people that disagreed with him on this thread. I was harsh, and will continue to be so, because I think that is shameful and morally repulsive. He could have started another thread, like you suggested, to honor those people, but he didn't. He brought their memories in this one to use as a weapon against Rue, SargeX, and SignyM, then had the nerve to claim that they attacked him first.
I don't know him personally, and I haven't participated in these threads enough to have gotten to know him. But I would never use someone's personal tragedies as a weapon just to "get to them." That being said, I will also not stand by while someone uses a personal tragedy to get to others.
When I heard about all those deaths, I felt truly horrible. It could have been my friends, and I'm not afraid to admit my relief when it wasn't. And then what's the first thing I see when I log onto this thread? Someone using those poor guys' memory as a rub in the face against people who don't agree with a political position, used to say that the people who disagreed aren't real Americans and aren't good people. It made me angry, infuriated even. And I let him have it, perhaps a little too harshly. But then he went and did it again, so I let him have it again.
I feel badly for the man and his community. The war has hit everyone's community in one way or another. But don't use the dead to make yourself feel superior. It shames us and it shames them.
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He looked bigger when I couldn't see him.
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No, I don't feel badly for Hero. He's not getting his ass shot up in Iraq.
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I'm willing to accept that Hero was upset and let it go at that.
How about the original topic? Is there any way we can put pressure on the administration to live up to their claim to NOT make our presence in Iraq permanent? It seems it will take an intensive grass roots effort to push it, and I'm not sure Americans can get behind it. They seem to like this war stuff. Or are at least they're apathetic enough to ignore it when we are still occupying those military bases ten years from now. What do you think?
SergeantX
"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock
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Most people don't know yet about the four "enduring" bases but don't worry, they will...
EDITED TO ADD: As far as pressuring the Administration- Bush et al are a lost cause. 80% of the population could be dead-set against something, but if it was worth their while they'd ram it through anyway. Just look at CAFTA and Bolton. And most Republicans for some reason have turned into Bush weenies. The best way to pressure the Administration is to pressure the Democratic Leadership Council (DLC) out of existance and change the complexion of the Democratic Party.
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