Let the people of Iraq decide.
POSTED BY: SergeantX
UPDATED: Friday, August 12, 2005 23:45
VIEWED: 6250
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Much of our discussion on this board is about the Iraq war and what our role should be in the future of that country. Bush has claimed that we will leave 'if asked'. A lot of people, even those who were against starting the war in the first place, feel we would be doing the nation a great disservice to just cut and run. But I think arguments of that nature are problematic because they invite and endless stream of excuses for us to stay there indefinitely.
I've wondered what Bush means by saying we'll leave if asked, but I have an idea regarding that. Why not just put it to a vote? And I'm not talking about polling the members of the existing government (who have might have a great deal to lose if we go), but a real honest-to-goodness referendum of the people. They've shown their willingness, and their ability, to participate in democracy. Why not let them decide their future?
Now I know this isn't likely to happen, but if it did, would you be willing to accept the results and abide by their wishes? I confess, I'm not completely sure what they'd decide. But if we expect people to believe that we're something besides an occupying army it seems we ought to respect them enough to ask.
SergeantX
"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock
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Quote:
Originally posted by SergeantX:
I've wondered what Bush means by saying we'll leave if asked, but I have an idea regarding that. Why not just put it to a vote? And I'm not talking about polling the members of the existing government (who have might have a great deal to lose if we go), but a real honest-to-goodness referendum of the people. They've shown their willingness, and their ability to participate in democracy. Why not let them decide their future?
I see two major flaws to this plan.
The first is how we have a real referendum of the people there, when we can't even do that very well over here. We have questionable voting results involving bits of paper and a hole punch here, not to mention the infamous DIEBOLD voting machine controversy (or lack thereof, depending on p.o.v.).
Second - and this one's the real kicker- lets say the majority tell us to leave. Do we abandon the minority that didn't to their fate at the hands of insurgents or bombers? We have a President here that thinks a mandate is a 2% victory margin. Is a mandate there 51%? What of the other 49%? We can't just leave them unprotected, especially if word might get out of who may have voted the 'occupiers' to stay (or from false claims that turn into witch hunts).
Now, I'm not a fan of the war, I make no bones about that. I didn't think it was legally or morally justified, nor do I think that the insurgency is in its last throes. But that is neither here nor there in this case. We came, and now we have to stay until it's fixed and stable, which could take years. In my opinion, we have to stabilize the country rapidly, which may mean more troops there instead of less. But it would be far better for us to leave willingly, instead of being pushed out by an increasingly hostile populace or government.
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He looked bigger when I couldn't see him.
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Quote:
Originally posted by SevenPercent:
But it would be far better for us to leave willingly, instead of being pushed out by an increasingly hostile populace or government.
This is why they don't believe us when we say we'll leave. It also shows just how serious we are about democracy.SergeantX
"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock
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Quote:
Originally posted by SergeantX:Quote:
Originally posted by SevenPercent:
But it would be far better for us to leave willingly, instead of being pushed out by an increasingly hostile populace or government.
The people of Iraq elected a government that has not asked us to leave.
I guess we could do a lot of things by popular vote, that pure Democracy. But its not very practical for running a large nation. Thats why we have adopted a Representative Democracy. We elected representatives, including the President, who make decisions about things like when to bring the troops home or how much corn to put in our gasoline. That is what we brought to Iraq.
That said, last I heard the Pentagon was looking at a gradual draw down in forces aiming to be mostly gone by next spring, instead shifting to a logistical and air support role (and maybe some heavy backup if needs be, probably based in Kuwait) for the new Iraqi army.
As for leaving completely, why would you want us to abandon our Iraqi allies to fight alone? That aint right. We'd never abandon Japan or Germany. Iraq is a friend and ally and deserves the same consideration.
H
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Just wondering, but has anyone ever asked our troops who are over there, been over there or are about to go over there what they think? It's easy to watch the news and wish other people do the dirty work, but never once have I seen anyone ask me or another other military troops what we should do?
For those of you who say we should stay until the country is stable, would you if able join the military to do your part in what you think the US should do?
I agree, we got into this for whatever reason. If the majority wanted us out I'd normally say fire up the grill I'll be home for dinner. However some people I know have been killed over there. One guy I know lost his wife because she couldn't stand being away from him for the year he was there. We have a lot invested, and to pull out now would take it all away.
On top of that there are the children of Iraq to think about. We can't just throw them to the wolves and hope for the best. The adults didn't turn on the Government like we did two hundred and twenty some years ago or else I might have some respect for the majority of them, even if they lost (one group did, a group that has my respect, but that’s another story). The children are our best hope for peace in the Middle East. True it won’t happen for a very long time, maybe even a few generations, but we need to start somewhere. Eventually the insurgents will die, from old age if it comes to that. If we can keep them from raising more people to take there places, that will stomp it out. If popular opinion turns greatly in the next generation, which will stomp it out. On top of all that the children of the soldiers we have lost are the true victims so far, let’s not make the Iraq children any more the victims than the insurgents choose to make them.
If you can read this, thank a teacher,
If your reading this in English, thank a soldier.
Aglaca, Combat Medic, US Army.
You can't take the sky from me.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:
The people of Iraq elected a government that has not asked us to leave.
Uh huh, pretty much what I figured. I addressed this in my post. The members of the current government have powerful, personal incentives for us to stay. You're counting on that, of course, and I understand why you don't want to be bound by the will of the people. But if that's the case, let's just have the balls to admit that we ain't leaving 'til we're damn good and ready. Like never, maybe.
SergeantX
"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock
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Quote:
Originally posted by SergeantX:
Uh huh, pretty much what I figured. I addressed this in my post. The members of the current government have powerful, personal incentives for us to stay. You're counting on that, of course, and I understand why you don't want to be bound by the will of the people.
If we left tomorrow would there be more dead Iraqis or less? There'd be more and many would be those elected to represent the nation. Thats a pretty powerful personal incentive, but can you blame them?
We are, by our own choice, bound by the will of the Iraqi people. They turned out by the millions braving terror and tragedy to cast their votes. Now you want to casually disregard their will and call for a 'do over' simply because you do not agree with the outcome.
Kind of a theme with you Bush-haters. Don't like the results of the elections, so you declare the elected leadership unfit and want to have another vote.
Your real problem is not the people who keep getting elected, its the people who keep electing them. You might want to consider fascism, I think you'd find it more to your liking.
You know a lot of liberals really would love a some fascist government'in, they've been practicing for years. PC and thought control on the university campuses, political machines in the major cities, and everybody knows what happens when you cross a labor union, its like liberals have this desire deep down to, well you know, dictate.
Sure, there's crazies out on the far right who're the same way, the Klan and those people who kill the baby-murderers...er...abortion doctors, but we keep our crazies locked up, out of the way. Democrats put them in charge, thats why the only thing they've won in, oh bouts 25 years, are two terms for Clinton. They've lost Congress, the Presidency, most of the state houses and governorships, their moral direction, and now they're losin the courts. Hell, I'd be a Democrat if I didn't keep wondering "what has happened to the Democratic Party of my youth?" And I'm only thirty...
I know some of you will wonder at my implying that liberals are fascists. I mean no direspect, but if your not fascist wannbe's why do all of your solutions involve disregarding elections? I assume any answer will involve some comment on the legitimacy of the election being the predicate for your respecting its results. I can understand that, after all the world is flat.
H
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You know, I've been over at another site reading the latest Bush idiocy about ID Theory in science classes, so I'm feeling snarky enough to respond to this (because your thread kinda torked me off).
Quote:
Originally posted by Aglaca:
Just wondering, but has anyone ever asked our troops who are over there, been over there or are about to go over there what they think? It's easy to watch the news and wish other people do the dirty work, but never once have I seen anyone ask me or another other military troops what we should do?
As I said when I was involved with the 'Support the Troops' post, I have many friends over there right now. They think going over there was a mistake, though they are happy to serve and try to do what is right to the best of their ability. Whether or not they think it's wrong, they don't have a choice, they have to go, and stay at the whim of the administration. That's just the breaks. As far as wishing other people to do the 'dirty work,' if more Iraqis had been willing to do that in the first place, we wouldnt be over there. Democracy starts at home, not at the point of a machine gun.
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For those of you who say we should stay until the country is stable, would you if able join the military to do your part in what you think the US should do?
I hate when people roll out this old chestnut (both sides do it, too). Lets roll out your logic train here, and see where you jump the track.
People didn't think the war was just-->People in this country and abroad said don't go-->Pres says we go anyway-->Doesn't go well, just as many said it didn't-->Now those who said it shouldnt have happened, who thought it was wrong or a mistake should volunteer themselves or their kids while those responsible for the mistake are not held accountable, because if they don't they aren't real patriots - Ah, yeah, that's where the train flew off, right there.
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The children are our best hope for peace in the Middle East. True it won’t happen for a very long time, maybe even a few generations, but we need to start somewhere. Eventually the insurgents will die, from old age if it comes to that. If we can keep them from raising more people to take there places, that will stomp it out.
Have you seen the pictures of Palestinian gunmen handing 6-year olds assault rifles? Not really sure a 6-year old with a gun is a great chance for peace, but I digress. How are we supposed to teach them that violence is not the answer if we keep responding with more violence? You also talk like the insurgents will just grow old and kick off, and that everyone will be happy and celebrate. "If we just keep fighting them, they'll all eventually die, and we can go back to being America." Whatever. Continued conflicts raise more people to the struggle, that's just a fact of life. When a teenager sees his sister, or parents killed by an accidental bombing, do you think he says "it was the insurgents' fault, those bad, bad folks"? No, he picks up a gun and joins the insurgency. Our best hope for peace is to find a peaceful solution.
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On top of all that the children of the soldiers we have lost are the true victims so far,
Because any dead Iraqi children can't be nearly as important as our surviving kids that lost a parent. Smug, superficial, unthinking statement from you. I think this was the line that cheesed me off enough to respond. I don't like it when people are killed, nor do I like it when kids are orphaned due to war. Any kids, any time, any place; not just the ones safe here at home. The more I think about this, the angrier I get.
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If you can read this, thank a teacher,
You're welcome (I teach Lit). And this particular teacher recommends you read the short story "The War Prayer," by Mark Twain.
http://www.midwinter.com/lurk/making/warprayer.html
There's the link so you can read it right now, even.
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He looked bigger when I couldn't see him.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:
Your real problem is not the people who keep getting elected, its the people who keep electing them. You might want to consider fascism, I think you'd find it more to your liking.
You know a lot of liberals really would love a some fascist government'in, they've been practicing for years.
H
It's good that you think that 'us Libs' will love a fascist state, since that's the direction we're headed. Glad to know I'll be happy when the right-wingnuts finally get their way. Since we seem to be headed in that direction right now...
"Of course the people don't want war. But after all, it's the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it's always a simple matter to drag the people along whether it's a democracy, a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism, and exposing the country to greater danger."
-- Herman Goering at the Nuremberg trials
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He looked bigger when I couldn't see him.
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Hero,
Before you tried to derail the conversation with your rant against liberals (*hint - I ain't a liberal) you made a couple of intelligible points.
Quote:
Originally posted by Hero:
If we left tomorrow would there be more dead Iraqis or less? There'd be more and many would be those elected to represent the nation. Thats a pretty powerful personal incentive, but can you blame them?
Right, that's the point I was making. That's why we really can't count on them to convey the 'leave' message, if that's truly what the people want.
Quote:
Hero again:
We are, by our own choice, bound by the will of the Iraqi people. They turned out by the millions braving terror and tragedy to cast their votes. Now you want to casually disregard their will and call for a 'do over' simply because you do not agree with the outcome.
I didn't get to read the ballots, but I don't think "America, stay or go?" was on there. I'm pretty sure Bush wouldn't have stood for it if it was.
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Kind of a theme with you Bush-haters. Don't like the results of the elections, so you declare the elected leadership unfit and want to have another vote.
Wrong again. I've never disputed the election results, other than to say the people made a terrible choice. But that's the way it goes.
The rest is just the typical partisan sports talk.
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Blah blah blah...
SergeantX
"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock
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