London terror attacks
POSTED BY: citizen
UPDATED: Saturday, July 30, 2005 21:41
VIEWED: 6537
PAGE 9 of 9
HKs post.
I'm prolly gonna regret getting into this with you but here goes...
^^^No regrets, I think you misinterpet my analogy.
"Apologist for the idiots of the world?" Your rhetoric's getting a little, shall we say, inflated. People should have the right to be an idiot in a civilized society. You're analogy is all backwards. He didn't "start toward the bear in a threatening manner," he ran. It is a natural reaction, when faced with danger, to flee. The cops were convinced that he was a suicide bomber, they were prepared (preparing?) to kill him, obviously he could sense that and he did the most natural thing.
^^^^^I would'nt call that "Inflated Rhetoric", I'd call it "Trash Talking". I'm pointing out that the actions of the individual are bound to affect the individual. Prudence is warranted.
^^^^^The analogy goes thus:
The Mama Bear is the Police. Wanting only to protect its cubs who appear to be in danger from the man who is running towards them. What should the bear do? Ignore the man approaching its cubs and hope he's not a danger? The analogy continues with the bear having prior knowledge of the danger that men running towards them poses.
If you were better informed about bears (notice how I don't call you an idiot) your analogy actually supports my position with one alteration. Let's say the man runs just as Jean Charles de Menenez ran from the police. Any savvy woodsman knows you should never run away from a bear--face the bear, avoid eye contact, back off slowly, no sudden moves. People still run from bears all the time (even people who know better do this 'cause they get spooked!) and sometimes they get mauled, but sometimes they get away. People who run away from bears aren't idiots, they are merely uninformed and responding to instinct. Can you look at the situation from Jean Charles de Menenez' point of view for five seconds? There was nothing idiotic about what he did except in hindsight and with the certain knowledge, which he could not have possessed, that these men would shoot him in the head if he ran.
^^^^^^See the analogy explanation above. Also, are saying that Mr. Menenez was unaware of the bombings in London? He should then be a little more cognizant of current events. Menenez made a mistake. A big one, yes. But again, it was his mistake that percipitated his death.
And why must you place the police outside the realm of human agency? Police are not a force of nature, unreasoning and impartial. They're not some treacherous bit of road on a rainy night. They are men, with all the endowments of non-police, including personal responsibility.
^^^^^^Yes, exactly. The police are men. With no super powers or clairvoyance or anything else. What they do have is Training, Bravery, Personal responsibility, and the responsibility to protect the public.
It's just so dang easy to assign blame and move on, but situations are more tragic even than you believe. No one here is to blame, but those with the power to respond humanely have, thereby, a responsibility to do so. Again, I think we place too much responsibility on the shoulders of police when we make them judge, jury and executioners in the field. You think it's necessary and appropriate under the circumstances. I do not.
HKCavalier
^^^^^Yet it is their responsibility. They must read the situation and respond in such a way as to protect the people. No time for Judges, bipartisan debates, or hesitation when the public is in harms way.
The only alternative is to not act, and let the bombers do as they wish.
Am I a Lion?... No, I think I'ma tellin' the truth.
BarnStormer
NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
original post by BarnStormer:
The responsibility rests squarely on his own shoulders. To try and place the responsibility on someone elses shoulders is just being an apologist for the idiot.
I'll reiterate what I have said before. The evidence suggests the police believed they were shooting a suicide bomber, who possibly had a bomb. I can accept that, but are you seriously telling me that seven bullets in the head is a reasonable amount of force?
A woman drove me to drink and I didn't even have the decency to thank her.
--W.C. Fields
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by Ruxton:
Perhaps that which drives people to become officers of the law has nothing to do with trying to become a fine marksman, nor with having to think oneself out of a shooting situation.
Sadly, what drives people into a particular profession has often more to do with what they lack than what they have mastered. We humans tend to end up where we have the most to learn. It's a good deal more likely that a man will join the police force out of his own unresolved need to find justice in the world, than out of his impartial clarity in the face of human frailty.
It has been proposed that Rue and I run for President and Vice President of the United States, humorously but sincerely I think, but that will never happen. The qualities which people believe make us so apt for the job, preclude us both from wanting the job. We've all read Plato. The drive to become President of the United States is far more instrumental in landing you there, than your aptitude for making wise decisions. People in power tend to desire more and more power when they most need to be abdicating their power.
But the founding fathers of these United States bucked that trend. Think of that! Just as they seized power, they sat down and wrote laws to limit that power. Is that a miracle or what? So, obviously it can be done.
I do believe that what they did, they did for all of us on the planet. It makes me proud. I hope we don't throw it all away in the name of safety and control.
HKCavalier
Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:"These words are not just for the Yangs, but for the Comes as well - they must apply to everyone, or they mean nothing!"
Originally posted by HKCavalier:
But the founding fathers of these United States bucked that trend. Think of that! Just as they seized power, they sat down and wrote laws to limit that power. Is that a miracle or what?
The words they put down should make us proud to be Americans, I just with they were followed a little more closely these days.
E-Plebnista Chrisisall
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
E-Plebnista Chrisisall
LOL! Thanks for that, Chris. Free-dum? That Yang worship-word!
HKCavalier
Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
ok - not looked at this for while but here are some thoughts
someone else said it but i agree - when confronted with a bunch of men brandishing firearems my survival technique would be to run to the nearest crowded place
the police trailed the guy from a street that was under servelience (don't seem to be agreement in the press that it was the exact adress) onto a bus and then to the tube station - all the suspects caught in the last few days have been caught not killed or shot with tasers. the shoot to kill policy is new and wasn't known about - it is now reported that there were 7 incidents where people were very nearly shot prior to the stockwell killing
'police are normal guys' - well i'm not sure with these guys they go through one hell of a trianing and we keep being told by experts that the training takes over - on this level i think that we can't just blame the individual officers - although there should be a trial for murder. But the training should be scrutinised as well by an independent body that has nothing to do with the police - but that will never happen while power lies in the hands of the few (and their bodies of armed men)
smile pretty and watch your back
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME