London terror attacks
POSTED BY: citizen
UPDATED: Saturday, July 30, 2005 21:41
VIEWED: 6537
PAGE 8 of 9
Quote:
Originally posted by Ruxton:
brings to mind this question: Do the people of Britain know about shoot-to-kill orders? Was this common knowledge prior to this shooting? Even if so, can foreign citizens living in London be expected to know this?
My understanding is, like yours, that the "police" were in fact not in uniform, so how can this guy be expected to stop, especially when he was recently mugged, when someone hollers at him.
Yes, yes, yes!
HKCavalier
Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.
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Quote:
original post by Ruxton:
My understanding is, like yours, that the "police" were in fact not in uniform, so how can this guy be expected to stop, especially when he was recently mugged, when someone hollers at him. In fact, at least one witness was emphatic that the police did not identify themselves prior to the murder.
The police were plainclothed, Aparently the police identified themselves outside of Stockwell station, when Jean Charles de Menezes was first confronted. I was unaware that he'd been recently mugged, where did you hear this?
BBC article on the current police shoot to kill policy:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4716645.stm
And Brazils reaction:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4716141.stm
A woman drove me to drink and I didn't even have the decency to thank her.
--W.C. Fields
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Quote:
Originally posted by citizen:Quote:
original post by HKCavalier:
Maybe, for their safety, we should put them all in camps for a few years where they won't get into trouble and they won't be mistaken for terrorists.
I happen to agree, the Nazi movement in Germany showed how quickly and easily these things can get out of control.
I'm afraid if you're going to look for comparisons in the 40's, you don't have to look any further than America and it's own policy of internment.
Incidentally, the photos of the victim make him appear slightly dark skinned, possibly just a white guy with a suntan. I don't see any malicious racism behind the shooting.
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Quote:
original post by SimonWho:
Incidentally, the photos of the victim make him appear slightly dark skinned, possibly just a white guy with a suntan. I don't see any malicious racism behind the shooting.
He was Brazillian so he was likely darker skinned. Dunno tho I know what you mean by the photos.
I wasn't really trying to say their was racial motivation, just how easy these things can spiral out of control given the right climate, tho i see why you thought that.
Quote:
original post by SimonWho:
I'm afraid if you're going to look for comparisons in the 40's, you don't have to look any further than America and it's own policy of internment.
Accusing gentle Bush of a misdeed! How dare you!
Those people at Guantanamo are all nasty evil terror types! As proven by a fair just and democratic trial...
No wait a minute...
A woman drove me to drink and I didn't even have the decency to thank her.
--W.C. Fields
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To be fair tho, us Brits invented the concentration camp during the boer war, and the Americans heard the Japanese into them during WW2 as well.
A woman drove me to drink and I didn't even have the decency to thank her.
--W.C. Fields
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Quote:
Originally posted by HKCavalier:
(Edited for clarity and to remove a level of sarcasm I'm a little embarrassed by. A little smart-ass goes a long way.)
You didn't have to do that, sarcasm is my middle name...
Quote:At this point it's time to confront, not run. Check locations of legs, specifically knees, and target them. Useful tools like garbage cans should be aquired for throwing...
A group of men start toward you, you're not necessarily going to check their i.d. badges up close, you get the feeling that they mean you harm
Quote:No, not really, and neither would I.
Did he really have a chance?
This was a lose/lose situation, that's clear now.
Reminds me of a time when some police in NY were cofronting a drug suspect in a dark doorway and one thought he saw the perp reach for a gun; they pumped 16 bullets into him. He had no gun, only a wallet and a sudden case of lead poisoning.
I can only absolutly assign blame for this on the circumstances, I don't know enough about the actions of the cops to comment on them, except to say people with things that go bang are usually dangerous.
Even Mal punched Simon before he really understood the situation. It's gorram complicated. And cops are just guys like you and me, maybe they can aim their guns a little better than us, but they're not the 'professionals' we see in the movies. Just peeps w/a little more training.
There's a lot of variables, we can't know them all, but yeah, living in fear is the biggest contributor to this incident. In that sense, the terrorists won a point for their scorecard.
Chrisisall
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Quote:
Originally posted by HKCavalier:Quote:
Originally posted by BarnStormer:
I assume your joking HK.
'Fraid not, BS. What's funny about it? So to your mind, running from the cops makes you a suspected terrorist. Such a "fool" deserves death. God forbid you should ever find yourself afraid of a cop, BarnStormer.
Your position doesn't make any sense, least of all common. On the one hand we are "all responsible for our own actions," but that somehow doesn't include the police. They are exempt in your view from agency. "If the guy is dead, it's his own doing." WTF? First off, what kind of cowardly phrasology is that? If? Seven bullets in the head says he's dead. Killed by a policeman. Wrongfully. I'm not hanging anything on the officers. "PC spin?" The man's only crimes were his location, the color of his skin and his fear of the police, on the strength of which, he was gunned down. Where's the spin? It's what I would call "brutal but true." To my mind, it takes a whole lot of spin to blame an innocent man shot seven times in the back of the head for his own death!
And for the sake of clarity, I am not blaming the police, they are not to blame, they were simply following procedure to the best of their ability. Their ability fell below the required mark. I'm not surprised. I feel terrible for them. As I've said before, what we're requiring of them is beyond human capacity to execute.
"Guns don't kill people, people--who aren't terrorists and yet run from the cops are too stupid to live and--kill themselves."Quote:
Simple common sense says that if your not a terrorist, it might be very bad for your continued good health to act exactly as a terrorist would during a time of terrorist homicide bombings in you immediate area.
If the guy is dead, it's his own doing. He was apparently a fool. I feel badly for the officers involved in his death, they must feel awful even if it was justified. And for his family of course.
Brutal but true. We are all responsible for our own actions. Putting a PC spin on this to hang it on the law inforcement officers in London is just a bunch of Crap.
Am I a Lion?... No, I think I'ma tellin' the truth.
BarnStormer
HKCavalier
Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.
To me it makes all the sense in the world. It all comes down to taking personal responsibility for your actions. If your actions are incorrect, you have to pay the consequences.
The police were acting to stop another terrorist bombing. If someone then acts like a terrorist in the act of setting off another bomb, he takes his own life in his own hands. It's as simple as that. The responsibility rests squarely on his own shoulders. To try and place the responsibility on someone elses shoulders is just being an apologist for the idiot.
Think of the analogy:
If your walking thru the woods and you come across a Bear and her two cubs, and you then start to run towards the two cubs in a threatening manner, it's going to be your own fault when Mama Bear procedes to rip you to shreds.
To think otherwise is to be an apologist for the idiots of the world.
No civilized person likes to see this sort of thing happen. It is tragic. Hopefully others will get the messege that this is serious business.
Am I a Lion?... No, I think I'ma tellin' the truth.
BarnStormer
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Quote:
Originally posted by BarnStormer:
To me it makes all the sense in the world. It all comes down to taking personal responsibility for your actions. If your actions are incorrect, you have to pay the consequences.
The police were acting to stop another terrorist bombing. If someone then acts like a terrorist in the act of setting off another bomb, he takes his own life in his own hands. It's as simple as that. The responsibility rests squarely on his own shoulders. To try and place the responsibility on someone elses shoulders is just being an apologist for the idiot.
Think of the analogy:
If your walking thru the woods and you come across a Bear and her two cubs, and you then start to run towards the two cubs in a threatening manner, it's going to be your own fault when Mama Bear procedes to rip you to shreds.
To think otherwise is to be an apologist for the idiots of the world.
No civilized person likes to see this sort of thing happen. It is tragic. Hopefully others will get the messege that this is serious business.
I'm prolly gonna regret getting into this with you but here goes...
"Apologist for the idiots of the world?" Your rhetoric's getting a little, shall we say, inflated. People should have the right to be an idiot in a civilized society. You're analogy is all backwards. He didn't "start toward the bear in a threatening manner," he ran. It is a natural reaction, when faced with danger, to flee. The cops were convinced that he was a suicide bomber, they were prepared (preparing?) to kill him, obviously he could sense that and he did the most natural thing.
If you were better informed about bears (notice how I don't call you an idiot
) your analogy actually supports my position with one alteration. Let's say the man runs just as Jean Charles de Menenez ran from the police. Any savvy woodsman knows you should never run away from a bear--face the bear, avoid eye contact, back off slowly, no sudden moves. People still run from bears all the time (even people who know better do this 'cause they get spooked!) and sometimes they get mauled, but sometimes they get away. People who run away from bears aren't idiots, they are merely uninformed and responding to instinct. Can you look at the situation from Jean Charles de Menenez' point of view for five seconds? There was nothing idiotic about what he did except in hindsight and with the certain knowledge, which he could not have possessed, that these men would shoot him in the head if he ran.And why must you place the police outside the realm of human agency? Police are not a force of nature, unreasoning and impartial. They're not some treacherous bit of road on a rainy night. They are men, with all the endowments of non-police, including personal responsibility.
It's just so dang easy to assign blame and move on, but situations are more tragic even than you believe. No one here is to blame, but those with the power to respond humanely have, thereby, a responsibility to do so. Again, I think we place too much responsibility on the shoulders of police when we make them judge, jury and executioners in the field. You think it's necessary and appropriate under the circumstances. I do not.
HKCavalier
Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.
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ChrisIsAll, you said:
"...cops are just guys like you and me, maybe they can aim their guns a little better than us...."
Well, during my years of active IPSC pistol competition, back when that was the best shooting training available, the few cops who participated were generally the WORST shooters. Also, with very few (and notable) exceptions, they were also the worst at dealing with scenarios that required thinking while being extremely active, combined with having to shoot (or not shoot), along with all of that. I don't know why that is, nor did any of my fellow competitors, but we all remarked on it. In fact, we tried to get more cops interested in shooting IPSC, but they didn't want to. Over a period of three or four years I observed dozens of top-level IPSC events including one of national scope, involving many hundreds of shooters. These were not isolated cases. Interested civilians were by far the better shots and better overall competitors. I doubt that has changed much over the years.
Perhaps that which drives people to become officers of the law has nothing to do with trying to become a fine marksman, nor with having to think oneself out of a shooting situation.
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