A question for Browncoats outside of the United States...

POSTED BY: chrisisall
UPDATED: Saturday, July 23, 2005 07:55
VIEWED: 4665
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RUE

Saturday, July 16, 2005 12:38 AM

I agree with you on that. But since it runs like an arms race, it has self-sustaining momentum. I liken it to Australian evolution of more toxic life-forms that are more toxic than anywhere else on earth. Once one starts, the others have to respond in kind, and so on. (Which is what Mitterand told Clinton on reaching the free trade agreement.) As a positive feedback cycle, I can't imagine an inbuilt exit from the process.

The only thing I can think of is if enough people reach new perspectives and come to understand - this is simply a choice that can be decided differently at any time. It's not a natural or supernatural law.

I can propose a life of security, abundance, freedom and trust for now and as far into the future as I can see, with just one precept. It's so clearly an answer to environmental destruction, poverty, insecurity and endless strife I can't imagine why anyone would not chose it. But I know it will never go anywhere, because people can think nothing but that this system is the only possible one.

Nearly everything I know I learned by the grace of others.

INEVITABLEBETRAYAL

Saturday, July 16, 2005 1:14 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
This country is right on the razor's edge of becoming the de-humanized world depicted in the movie 'Robocop'
(minus the cyborg hero, of course).

You have got to read Twilight of American Culture by Morris Berman.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/039332169X/qid=112147631
2/sr=8-1/ref=pd_bbs_1/002-7552638-7181663?v=glance&s=books&n=507846

"Analogizing the contemporary United States to the late Roman Empire, Berman sees a nation fat on useless consumption, saturated with corporate ideology, and politically, psychically, and culturally dulled. But he believes that this behemoth--what Thomas Frank called the 'multinational entertainment oligopoly'--must buckle under its own weight."

_______________________________________________
I wish I had a magical wish-granting plank.

JASONZZZ

Tuesday, July 19, 2005 10:13 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
So, you want the government dictating family values to you? Telling you how to raise your children? Or maybe just the poor families?
I'm not against the government encouraging family values, but I don't know what kind of roll they can play.

Sorry, I didn't make myself clear.
I meant that if the government is truly interested in promoting 'Family Values', that they should put up or shut up.
Make sure breakfast and lunch programs don't disappear from schools, for a start, at least. Hungry kids don't learn well, there are studies that prove that (another thing that has studies, 'cause common sense wouldn't have already told us that).
How about paying for college (to be a doc or techy type) in return for a five year stint at public service?

hmmm... seems like everybody is looking for a hand out these days... Maybe if people stop watching TV and pay attention to what they eat, spend time with their kids. Hungry kids don't learn well - I agree, but 80% of the problems are with the parents... More and more, people pump out babies like they need more pets (and without any of the owner's responsibilities) Having a lunch program at school doesn't help at all... Why do you think all of the school cafeteria programs are either disappearing or being replaced by McD's ? Because the parents aren't on the kids' back on eating properly and eating nutritiously - for crying out loud, most parents themselves are junk food slobs... The place to start is at the home and then go and talk to your neighbors and your school board, get the mindset changed first and the results will come.

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:

That's where it starts and ends, we could all come up with stuff in between. The foundation for a strong country economically starts with security in families. Kids that have a bad start have less chance of being positive contributors to society, or developing good families of their own.
The present (and past) administration seems to be ignoring this. Like all we need is enough disenfranchised souls to fill the soldier suits.

Chrisisall

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CHRISISALL

Tuesday, July 19, 2005 10:34 PM

What about sterilization? We do the child abusers/neglectors, the insane and the violent criminals, how's that for a start?
It would decrease the # of parents in this country by a quarter...

Chrisisall

BECSTHEBEAST

Friday, July 22, 2005 8:29 PM

view from the uk

this is a really interesting thread - i hadn't the time to get into it sooner as until now only had access to the internet at work so this is just a few random thoughts

you were asking about the middle class around the world - first question is who is middle class? - a lot of people would say teachers, junior doctors, white collar office workers - i don't think thats the case. Anyone who has to enter into an agreement with a boss over getting paid to work is really in the working class (by classical marxist definition). In Britain all of the above jobs are increasingly harder and less well paid. The key problem is the partial privatisation - which has meant the loss of fire appliances and crews in central london, the removal of conductor on london buses, the privatisation of hospital cleaning services increasing the risk of infection and the threat of a loss of 800 jobs on the underground (which the management are still intending to go ahead with even after the recent attrocities)

On food - maybe you have heard of British TV chef Jamie Olivier - writes books and had a series on tv recently and ran a campaign to get burgers, chips and sugar off the school meal menus and replaced by decent food. He wanted to raise the amount per meal from 30p to 50p (i guess 50 to 80 cents), train the dinner ladies to be able to cook real food and at the same time he introduced the kids and their parents to the idea of real food. He offered the kids real meat and processed meat products - and intially they went for the chicken dippers - then he showed them what went in them and they were so disgusted that they all ate the real meat after that. In the school he trialed this is the rates of asthma disappeared and the kids attention spans went through the roof. Even with these results he had to fight against the local council and the government to get to agree. So the kids learnt to eat better and school and then started influencing the parents.
I'm sure these results are no surprise to anyone here - they make sense - they don't make sense if your bottom line is immediate profit. After the programme aired the media launched an all out campaign on the government to petition them to take it seriously and eventually they agreed to look at it.
The point is that we have to fight for things - women chained themselves to railings to get the vote here, the eight hour day was introduced through mass strikes and protests, i don't know my US history too well but i do know that without the civil rights movement and the bravery of ordinary people like rosa parks severe discrimination could still exist.

sorry if thats a bit of ramble - i just wanted to join in what seems an interesting and worthwhile discussion - its what i really enjoy about hanging out here

just on the sterilisation qu - my problem is who decides - are you really saying 1/4 of adults in the US are convicted child abusers, violent criminals or insane - if thats the case its worse over there than i thought

smile pretty and watch your back

CHRISISALL

Friday, July 22, 2005 8:47 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by becsthebeast:
are you really saying 1/4 of adults in the US are convicted child abusers, violent criminals or insane - if thats the case its worse over there than i thought

To be serious I'd say maybe 5% (a great many more are just plain stupid, but not immediatly dangerous) of the adults are.

I was just trying to be ridiculous back to Jasonzzz for his simplistic and thoughtless post.

I mean, we could solve every problem mankind has with a series of nuclear devices, properly placed, right?

Thanks for the interesting post, becsthebeast.

Working class Chrisisall

BECSTHEBEAST

Saturday, July 23, 2005 7:55 AM

my mum always says you can solve every problem with a large enough polythene bag - could be less messy and more specific than a nuclear device

smile pretty and watch your back

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