Burning the flag is illegal: a constitutional amendment

POSTED BY: chrisisall
UPDATED: Saturday, July 2, 2005 02:01
VIEWED: 16637
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CONNORFLYNN

Friday, June 24, 2005 7:51 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by gtman8503:
Quote:
Originally posted by SimonWho:
Hmm. That's a survey done by an American organisation which seems to view "free" as wherever America is currently standing. I wonder if they would have also have consider the America of "separate but equal" also "free".

This amendment is going into the Senate, not because of whether it is going to pass or not but because the Republicans can make the Democrats look bad for opposing it. Unfortunately, given the current hunger to win (and Pres in waiting Hilary's lack of 1st amendment concerns when it comes to, say, video games) it might pass regardless.

Where are all these militias that kept promising to attack to keep America free? What are they waiting for?

According to Freedomhouse.org:

"Freedom House is a clear voice for democracy and freedom around the world. Founded over sixty years ago by Eleanor Roosevelt, Wendell Willkie, and other Americans concerned with the mounting threats to peace and democracy, Freedom House has been a vigorous proponent of democratic values and a steadfast opponent of dictatorships of the far left and the far right.

"Over the years, Freedom House has been at the center of the struggle for freedom. It was an outspoken advocate of the Marshall Plan and NATO in the 1940s, of the U.S. civil rights movement in the 1950s and 1960s, of the Vietnam boat people in the 1970s, of Poland's Solidarity movement and the Filipino democratic opposition in the 1980s, and of the many democracies that have emerged around the world in the 1990s."

So, I'm assuming that, since it supported the civil rights movement, it would not have considered the "seperate but equal" America as free as the America of today. I can't find any old ratings of theirs however. If you can find some "freedom ratings" from some other nonpartisan organizations, be my guest. Give me a suvey by a British organization. The one I used just happened to be one of the first Google results I found.

As for militias "promising to attack to keep America free", I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.

LOL Welcome to the boards GTMAN8503!

Now be prepared to defend yourself. We can't be seen to say anything Pro-America without being fully prepared to be flamed.

/hands over the flameretardant helmet and gloves

All I see this is is an attempt to get the flag burners going again. When you tell someone they can't do something then they are more likely to do it.

War on Drugs - Yep , we stopped smoking the doobs didn't we?! ;)

Prohibition - Yep..I'm nut dwunk ossifer weally I'm nut.. Hic Hic

War on Poverty - Damn! Connecticut just commandeered my home under Eminent Domain. They say they need the space for a Walmart.

War on Terror - Holy Shiite!!! Whats that dude doing wearing a big bulky coat in the heat of the summer?! Kaboom!!!!

Nah.. Big Government gets bigger and us little people give up a little more each time. This is a small thing really. However all those small things seem to add up pretty freaking quick. See Patriot Act II.

I love my country. I believe the flag represents America, but I could give 2 shits whether somebody burns it.

Thats the beauty of living in America. You can be a F***ing Asshole if you want to. As long as you don't kill anyone ( ahem..unless of course you're wealthy *cough* Ted Kennedy/OJ Simpson/ holy cripes the list is huge) or damage someone elses property (or any property that may cause insurance companies duress, can't set your own house on fire or crash your car etc..etc..)of course.

I'd rather see them REALLY address the tax code and social security blunders (maybe remove that $90,000 taxable income cap) before someone F***s that up more then it is. But Hey, we're talking about government here. They never get anything done LOL.

Jesus H. Crimony..I'm becoming a gorram socialist for the hell of it ;)

/ramble off

BEOWULF

Friday, June 24, 2005 8:07 PM

I'm thinking if you want to be clear, you need to do something like suspend a flag over a flame and have a big sign saying "Please, Congress... don't do it".

Would that be a clear enough message that what you are about to do is symbolic of what you think congress is about to do in the sense that the flag is symbolic of the ammendment they're about to effectively burn?

I'm fairly confident that the House is just trotting this out again because it's a safe way to show "patriotism" with full knowledge that it will never pass the Senate. As with the past few times they've done it, I just hope they're right.

Quote:
Why not find a more productive way of venting your frustrations? You might end up convincing someone that you're right.

What protest is ever designed to convince anyone of anything other than the fact that the protesters are frustrated/angry/opinionated?

Frankly, if we're going to come up with useful protest ideas, I'm wondering if anyone up in New London, CT needs some reinforcements to defend their homes from a hostile force.

THENEWESTFIREFLYFANATIC

Friday, June 24, 2005 8:07 PM

yep...this will go down as another dark smear in our nation's history...when we care more about whether or not we should burn a piece of cloth rather than whats happening to our education system, or poverty, etc, etc.

CHRISISALL

Friday, June 24, 2005 8:18 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Connorflynn:
be prepared to defend yourself. We can't be seen to say anything Pro-America without being fully prepared to be flamed.

You neo-con right wing facist racist nazi elitist fur-wearing baby killin' flag humpin' oil guzzlin' fundamentalist-
Oh. I just read what's under the quote I highlighted. Never mind.

Chrisisall

R1Z

Friday, June 24, 2005 9:06 PM

Clearly you and I will never agree on this point, which is absolutely your right and one of the great beauties of our political system.

However, if you will will indulge me by answering one question: IF

Quote:
Context is irrelevent.

What, pray tell, is the difference, other than context, between burning a worn out flag respectfully and burning a flag in protest?

Seems to me that whether one stands at attention with hand over heart or jumps up and down screaming (which I would call context) makes all the difference.

You never know, next week someone may choose to burn a flag to protest the flavor of pudding served in the cafeteria. You and I may both agree it's a poor choice, but once again, their right and one of the great beauties of our system.

R1Z

To enjoy the flavor of life, take big bites. Moderation is for monks. --Robt. Heinlein

HKCAVALIER

Friday, June 24, 2005 9:50 PM

Couple things. I always thought that the whole flag burning thing back in the 60's was like the Vietnamese self-immolation thing. A symbol of what they believed was happening in the country. I don't think the Vietnamese individuals were burning themselves because they thought they were bad, right? "America and all she stands for are going down in flames!" That kind of thing. Not the most coherent message, but it got folks' attention.

The other thing: what has happened to patriotism since 1776 that we have to increase our reverence for the idols that symbolize our nation? The founding fathers saw no need to put this in the constitution, so why should we? Was it an oversight on their part?

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

PERFESSERGEE

Friday, June 24, 2005 11:01 PM

The scary thing about the anti-flag burning advocates is that they *just don't get it* - the flag is a symbol, not a sacred object. Most rational people don't spend their time worshipping pieces of cloth, but then there's nothing rational about this debate - again, it's about symbols. Our flag is a symbol of some pretty wonderful things (like the freedom to more or less live like you want, criticize the idiots who run your government without very much repercussion, associate with whom you like and worship as you see fit). Unfortunately it's also a symbol that lots of jingoists use to obfuscate real problems (such as leaders who lie to us - great to wrap a flag around that one - or those who deny the very liberty that flag symbolizes - think of the detention of US citizens without recourse to our constitutional legal system). Hypocrisy is such a wonderful thing.....

I love this country, and I've spent enough time in several other countries (Africa, South America) to fully undertand the value of our liberty and the scope of our opportunity. I proudly sing our national anthem every time it comes up. But I will not pledge "allegiance to the flag" - my allegiance is to my country, not to a symbol. I believe in what my country is, though I may sometimes deprecate what it does. I've never burned a flag, and I never will, but those of you who think it ought to be banned need to work on your rational thought processes and perhaps spend a little time reading some of the philosophers whose thought informed the writing of our constitution.

perfessergee

SERGEANTX

Saturday, June 25, 2005 12:09 AM

You know, I didn't necessarily see this as a freedom of speech issue until I began reading the reasoning given by the supporters of the ammendment. They are very clear that what they want to squelch is the emotions and ideas expressed by burning the flag. They're not concerned, necessarily, with the repurcussions of that speech. They're not worried about the vandalism of it all or even that flag burners might incite violence. They are clearly focused on the offense of showing disrespect. Their attitude is succinctly summed up in the refrain -

"Sit down and shut up!"

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

HKCAVALIER

Saturday, June 25, 2005 12:33 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SergeantX:
You know, I didn't necessarily see this as a freedom of speech issue until I began reading the reasoning given by the supporters of the ammendment. They are very clear that what they want to squelch is the emotions and ideas expressed by burning the flag. They're not concerned, necessarily, with the repurcussions of that speech. They're not worried about the vandalism of it all or even that flag burners might incite violence. They are clearly focused on the offense of showing disrespect. Their attitude is succinctly summed up in the refrain -

"Sit down and shut up!"

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

Hey, didn't George Orwell write a book once about a country where the government tried to control its citizens' emotions and thoughts?

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

GEEZER

Saturday, June 25, 2005 2:05 AM

Woopee! So we're going to make the Flag the American version of the Quran, and get our panties all in a bunch if anyone burns it. WRONG!

I see the burning of the Flag as the highest symbol of our freedom. That our people have the right to destroy the very avatar of our country is an affirmation of our system of government. Taking this away is a BIG mistake.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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