Burning the flag is illegal: a constitutional amendment
POSTED BY: chrisisall
UPDATED: Saturday, July 2, 2005 02:01
VIEWED: 16637
PAGE 2 of 10
My problem with the amendment is that it's stupid. I can't recall American flags being burned in the US recently. They did it before in the hopes of bringing attention to their cause with such a dramatic act. However, protestors seem to have learned that all it does is draw attention to the burning and their issues are ignored. It's been pretty much discarded as a viable protest here. They still burn it in other countries, but our amendment won't stop that.
Plus, it's not a flag burning amendment, it's a flag desecration amendment. But the rules that govern the proper use and respect for the flag also say that it can't be worn on clothing, touch the ground, be flown in the rain, or at night unless properly lit. This means anybody who did any of those things would be violating the constitution. Imagine that. You buy a shirt that says "I love the USA!" which has the flag printed on it. You're a patriot. You love your country and want to show everyone how you feel. A cop sees you and now you have to spend 5 years in federal prison. Brilliant amendment. Congress is stupid.
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Quote:
I can't recall American flags being burned in the US recently.
Here's a brief list I found of flag desecrations, mostly burnings, from 1989-2003. It's from some pro-amendment website. Now, I'm not arguing for an amendment (As I said above), but flag burning isn't uncommon.
http://www.cfa-inc.org/issues/burnings.htm
True story now...when I was in high school, I had a flag that was desecrated. I lived away from home at a boarding school, and had a flag displayed in my dorm-room window (which, by the way, I was forced to take down because some people on campus found it "offensive". It was just a plain American flag!) So I hung it on my wall instead. One day, I had left my dorm room unlocked while I was down the hall chilling in someone elses room. Anyway, another guy who lived in the building went into my room, took the flag down off of my wall, and started cutting the stars off. I caught him in the act while I was going back to my room. Needless to say, I was not amused. So, I grabbed him by the throat and rammed his head through the wall. (It was cheap drywall-stuff) He was fine...just a little unconscious. I don't think he had a concussion...Anyway, I ended up having to go to anger management for the last two years of high school. But, he never messed with me again, and he bought me a new flag, so it all worked out.
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This will go nowhere, like it always does. Just some representatives looking for attention.
SergeantX
"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock
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"My thing about flag burning is this: It's not protesting the government or the current administration...it's protesting America and the ideals that she stands for, regardless of the current administration. When someone disrespectfully burns a flag, I see it as them saying "I hate America. I hate everything this nation stands for."
The key is in your statement: "I see it as . . ."
You see what you see. Absent an articulated intent, you are making an assumption based on little or no data. If I choose to burn a flag to demonstrate my disrespect for Tom Delay and his fundraising tactics, then what you are "hearing" is not originating in what I'm "saying".
This is why our founding father added the first amendment, to permit all of our expressions: standing on a soapbox orating to total strangers, marching in a circle carrying a sign, or burning or urinating on our flag.
Unless you can categorically say that EVERYTHING in this country is perfect, (NO innocent people jailed ever, complete equity in taxation, never got a ticket when you weren't speeding) and will ALWAYS be so, perhaps we'd better keep our options open with regard to expressing our displeasure. You never know when we're going to need them.
To enjoy the flavor of life, take big bites. Moderation is for monks. --Robt. Heinlein
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Who remembers the episode of the Simpsons where Lisa (in a dream) is going to marry the British guy? He turns up at their house and through a series of unfortunate events, they display a burning British flag, stamp on it then cover it with manure. As a Brit, I laughed myself stupid. However, under the new constitution, if they did the same exact joke but with the American flag, the network, the writers and the producers would probably be arrested.
Arrest without trial or procedure; flag burning laws; citizens told their property can be taken from them by corporations. What are you, about the 20th most free country in the world now?
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Quote:
You see what you see. Absent an articulated intent, you are making an assumption based on little or no data. If I choose to burn a flag to demonstrate my disrespect for Tom Delay and his fundraising tactics, then what you are "hearing" is not originating in what I'm "saying".
Context is irrelevent. When someone desecrates and American flag, they aren't protesting a specific person's action or an action of the administration, they're protesting America. If you were protesting someone like Tom Delay, you wouldn't desecrate a flag. You might burn an effigy of Delay...you might hold signs up calling for his resignation...you might chant things to similar effect, but you wouldn't burn an American flag becuause it has nothing to do with Delay. Please, tell me, other than the fact that Delay is an American, and he is a politician, what connection is there between him and the American flag? There's no more reason to burn a flag to protest Delay than there is to burn a flag to protest Senator Dodd. Since there's no connection between Delay and the flag, burning it doesn't specifically disrespect him. It might make him angry, but it doesn't disrespect him. It just doesn't apply to the situation.
When you say, "you see what you see", you're absolutely correct. But I think you're forgetting that the same message applies to yourself. Regardless of the message you're intending to send, when you burn a flag, you're saying you want to destroy America. That's the way it's interpereted by millions of people in this country, including everyone who's campaigning for the Amendment. Why not be more specific in your criticism of the situation? Flag-desecration doesn't really help you get your point across...it makes you look like a nut. Organized protests, writing editorials, sending letters to your congressmen...those are things that help you get your point across.
Quote:
Unless you can categorically say that EVERYTHING in this country is perfect, (NO innocent people jailed ever, complete equity in taxation, never got a ticket when you weren't speeding) and will ALWAYS be so, perhaps we'd better keep our options open with regard to expressing our displeasure. You never know when we're going to need them.
No, I can't say that everything is perfect...and that's all the more reason NOT to desecrate the flag. The flag represents all of the purest ideals of America. Freedom. Liberty. Justice for all. When you burn it, the message you're sending isn't that those things don't exist in America...you're saying that those things SHOULDN'T exist. Inasmuch as that message is probably exactly the opposite of the message you're trying to send, it really doesn't help your cause.
Again, under current laws, you can burn a flag. It's not illegal yet. Just be aware that the message you send by doing it may not be what you're intending to say. Why not find a more productive way of venting your frustrations? You might end up convincing someone that you're right.
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Quote:
Originally posted by SimonWho:
Who remembers the episode of the Simpsons where Lisa (in a dream) is going to marry the British guy? He turns up at their house and through a series of unfortunate events, they display a burning British flag, stamp on it then cover it with manure. As a Brit, I laughed myself stupid. However, under the new constitution, if they did the same exact joke but with the American flag, the network, the writers and the producers would probably be arrested.
Arrest without trial or procedure; flag burning laws; citizens told their property can be taken from them by corporations. What are you, about the 20th most free country in the world now?
SimonWho:
FYI The Amendment hasn't been passed yet...may not pass at all (hopefully). It's not a law yet.
As for freedom, we're a little higher than 20th.
By economic freedom, we're 13th:
http://www.heritage.org/research/features/index/country.cfm?id=Uniteds
tates
And by civil freedom, we're high as well. "Freedom House" ranks us as number 1 in civil and political rights(tied with about 2 dozen other countries):
http://www.freedomhouse.org/research/freeworld/2004/countryratings/usa
.htm
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Hmm. That's a survey done by an American organisation which seems to view "free" as wherever America is currently standing. I wonder if they would have also have consider the America of "separate but equal" also "free".
This amendment is going into the Senate, not because of whether it is going to pass or not but because the Republicans can make the Democrats look bad for opposing it. Unfortunately, given the current hunger to win (and Pres in waiting Hilary's lack of 1st amendment concerns when it comes to, say, video games) it might pass regardless.
Where are all these militias that kept promising to attack to keep America free? What are they waiting for?
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Quote:If Americans burn the flag and are NOT harassed or jailed for their actions and that is shown on international TV, what lessons do you think OTHERS could draw from that sight? I can think of several immediate reactions:
When you say, "you see what you see", you're absolutely correct. But I think you're forgetting that the same message applies to yourself. Regardless of the message you're intending to send, when you burn a flag, you're saying you want to destroy America. That's the way it's interpereted by millions of people in this country, including everyone who's campaigning for the Amendment.
America is disorganized.
Their leader must be weak since he doesn't put down these demonstrations.
America is a land of great freedom
Even Americans recognize that their leaders are doing something wrong.
I can't imagine the FIRST interpretation being "Americans hate liberty"
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Quote:
Originally posted by SimonWho:
Hmm. That's a survey done by an American organisation which seems to view "free" as wherever America is currently standing. I wonder if they would have also have consider the America of "separate but equal" also "free".
This amendment is going into the Senate, not because of whether it is going to pass or not but because the Republicans can make the Democrats look bad for opposing it. Unfortunately, given the current hunger to win (and Pres in waiting Hilary's lack of 1st amendment concerns when it comes to, say, video games) it might pass regardless.
Where are all these militias that kept promising to attack to keep America free? What are they waiting for?
According to Freedomhouse.org:
"Freedom House is a clear voice for democracy and freedom around the world. Founded over sixty years ago by Eleanor Roosevelt, Wendell Willkie, and other Americans concerned with the mounting threats to peace and democracy, Freedom House has been a vigorous proponent of democratic values and a steadfast opponent of dictatorships of the far left and the far right.
"Over the years, Freedom House has been at the center of the struggle for freedom. It was an outspoken advocate of the Marshall Plan and NATO in the 1940s, of the U.S. civil rights movement in the 1950s and 1960s, of the Vietnam boat people in the 1970s, of Poland's Solidarity movement and the Filipino democratic opposition in the 1980s, and of the many democracies that have emerged around the world in the 1990s."
So, I'm assuming that, since it supported the civil rights movement, it would not have considered the "seperate but equal" America as free as the America of today. I can't find any old ratings of theirs however. If you can find some "freedom ratings" from some other nonpartisan organizations, be my guest. Give me a suvey by a British organization. The one I used just happened to be one of the first Google results I found.
As for militias "promising to attack to keep America free", I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.
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