The Downing Street Memo: Just another empty Anti-War Leftist canard

POSTED BY: lynchaj
UPDATED: Sunday, June 19, 2005 09:05
VIEWED: 15313
PAGE 4 of 9

PREV PAGE 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 NEXT PAGE

CHRISISALL

Wednesday, June 8, 2005 2:35 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by lynchaj:
Like I could see President Bush in a western as a Sheriff. Maybe on Paradiso.

Sheriff Bush (to Mal):
What you boys got in that Firefly, anyway?

Mal:
Dry goods, medicine an' the like. For the Border Colonies.

Sheriff Bush:
Hear you spend time with a man named Niska, if I'm not mistaken.

Jayne (whispering to Mal):
Come on, Mal, this guy's a dumbass. Let's-

Mal (cutting Jayne off):
Niska was a...potential buisness partner. But we saw things different ways- you know how it sometimes gets...

Sheriff Bush:
Never liked the man myself, but we set him up to perform certain functions within the community. Hear he ain't quite himself these days, and word is you had something to do with that.

Jayne suddenly swings at Sheriff bush, who easily ducks it only to trip backward and fall into the intake of Serenity's right engine.

Jayne (turning to walk):
Well that saves time.

Mal (running into Serenity):
Ask Kaylee if we ever need to wash those intakes.

Thanks for the idea, Andrew. That was fun.

Off topic Chrisisall

CHRISISALL

Wednesday, June 8, 2005 2:43 AM

It seems promotions are achieved by LOOKING as if you do a good job, not necessarily DOING a good job. Hey, isn't that how corporations work...?

2 cents Chrisisall

CONNORFLYNN

Wednesday, June 8, 2005 2:56 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by lynchaj:
So basically, Wolfowitz, Cheney, Rumsfeld, etc were still in the background during the 1990's but I don't see them as a sinister cabal, only just waiting their turn when a Republican was elected in a bunch of thinktanks and companies like Haliburton.

There are literally thousands of think tanks representing every idea under the sun.

Thanks

Andrew Lynch

Here's the thing though. These guys have been in the game since Reagan and a couple before Reagan. They haven't really been required to "wait their turn" LOL. Plus, not many think tanks get to be the brains behind the President of the United States or help make policy.

Donald H. Rumsfeld
http://www.defenselink.mil/bios/rumsfeld.html
---------------------------------------------
Dr. Paul Wolfowitz
http://www.defenselink.mil/bios/wolfowitz.html

---------------------------------------------
Dick Cheney Bio:
http://www.defenselink.mil/specials/secdef_histories/bios/cheney.htm

These dudes have been around for a good while.

RUE

Wednesday, June 8, 2005 3:51 AM

ConnorFlynn

Quote:
Saudi Arabia is playing the game

I'm just curious what you mean by that.

It's not the 'freedom is on the march' game b/c they are no closer to democracy than before. They've got to support US currency b/c if it falls, they'll be flat broke. However, indications are that they've reached peak oil production (despite pressure to increase extraction, they seem unable to ramp up in any significant way). Military bases are being re-deployed or decommissioned. I read only 500 US servicemen remain there.

Do you mean that as long as they are not overtly, officially defying the US; and, so far as they participate in what at this point is a pretty toxic quid pro quo (your teetering dollar for our oil for your weapons) they are considered good guys by the admin?

Is the game called: Keeping your head down as you walk down the street ?

SERGEANTX

Wednesday, June 8, 2005 5:16 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Connorflynn:
Here's the thing though. These guys have been in the game since Reagan and a couple before Reagan. They haven't really been required to "wait their turn" LOL. Plus, not many think tanks get to be the brains behind the President of the United States or help make policy.

What I'm struck with as I read their info is a undercurrent of a weird kind of nostalgia for the cold war. That's just my own perception, so it could be bunk for sure, but when I also notice how much of their mindset and attitudes concerning diplomacy seem directly derived from cold war politics it makes me wonder.

The other thing that makes the whole thing kind of creepy is their unabashed eagerness for an openly imperial America. They even embrace the language of it - "Pax Americana". Now, I doubt they coined the term, but it's an unavoidable reference to the Roman Empire and underlines just how cozey they are with the notion.

SergeantX

"Dream a little dream or you can live a little dream. I'd rather live it, cause dreamers always chase but never get it." Aesop Rock

CONNORFLYNN

Wednesday, June 8, 2005 11:47 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
ConnorFlynn
Quote:
Saudi Arabia is playing the game
I'm just curious what you mean by that.

It's not the 'freedom is on the march' game b/c they are no closer to democracy than before. They've got to support US currency b/c if it falls, they'll be flat broke. However, indications are that they've reached peak oil production (despite pressure to increase extraction, they seem unable to ramp up in any significant way). Military bases are being re-deployed or decommissioned. I read only 500 US servicemen remain there.

Do you mean that as long as they are not overtly, officially defying the US; and, so far as they participate in what at this point is a pretty toxic quid pro quo (your teetering dollar for our oil for your weapons) they are considered good guys by the admin?

Is the game called: Keeping your head down as you walk down the street ?

Pretty much, that's exactly what I mean.

They are making arrests in the cause of the War on Terrorism (More likely, War on Opposition), but their true colors show through on many occasions. The facts are that Saudi Arabia is in trouble. Big trouble. The Royalty are trying desperately to maintain the status quo, whilst they shift their moneys off shore and prepare for their eventual overthrow. They don't want the US to come in so they will toe the line as well. Their youth have been brought up under fundamentalist Islam. I read a great article in the National Geographic (and before anyone gets their panties in a bunch, the NG still remains a pretty unbiased publication) on Saudi Arabia. The youth can't find jobs or become qualified for jobs because the "majority" only have education in and around Fundamentalist Islam. What has been happening because of this, is the influx of foreign workers. It's a tough shake. It's not going to get any better. Look at how various Democratic countries react when foreign workers come in and take jobs LOL. Extremists can use this to advantage.

Saudi Arabia is a country in which we would fail horrifically (not necessarily militarily, but it would be long and drawn out through guerilla fighting), if we tried to bring "Our" brand of democracy to them. It would be like forcing a bunch of Trailer park dwellers in the deep South to be Ghetto or force the Massachusett's Intellectual Elitists to be garbage men. Bad mojo, though I would love to have stock in KLEENEX, if the latter occurred LOL.

Saudi Arabia is the LEADING reason why I think we need to get out of the Middle East as fast as possible. When that storm occurs and it is Coming, I don't want our boys and girls in the path. The first people the Saudi Nationals will turn against are the foreigners and the "Infidels".

CONNORFLYNN

Wednesday, June 8, 2005 12:40 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SergeantX:

What I'm struck with as I read their info is a undercurrent of a weird kind of nostalgia for the cold war. That's just my own perception, so it could be bunk for sure, but when I also notice how much of their mindset and attitudes concerning diplomacy seem directly derived from cold war politics it makes me wonder.

The other thing that makes the whole thing kind of creepy is their unabashed eagerness for an openly imperial America. They even embrace the language of it - "Pax Americana". Now, I doubt they coined the term, but it's an unavoidable reference to the Roman Empire and underlines just how cozey they are with the notion.

I agree. Though it is not Imperialism in the traditional sense. Right now we are basically the economic and military power of the world (If you don't count China..who is trudging quietly along). These guys want to do everything they can to maintain that, even if it is through Military means. Military means are the only way they know how to achieve anything. It's the Cold War mentality amplified. Becuase it is nolonger us against Russia..It's us against anyone who could be a potential threat to us.

Thats where the danger lies, not so much in the motive of maintaining our position as a World Leader, but in the means to that end.

The PNAC in general have a very elitist mentality. Elitism in general is counter productive to good relationships with the rest of the world, and like it or not..we are all in this together.

The difference between PNAC and for instance a group like MOVEON (aka fringe Leftwing Upperclass bored elitist whack jobs all of em), is that the PNAC isn't just a Right Wing Think tank waffling in the wind, they are much more focused, much more singular minded and have control of our Military. They have an Endgame in sight and they don't need the support of Hollywood or the "Intellectual Peacenik" mis-educated youth to meet their agenda.

The PNAC is also in a position of power for at least 2.5 more years.

Alot can be done in 2.5 years.

Interesting article by Kagan:
http://www.newamericancentury.org/kagan-20020520.htm

CHRISISALL

Wednesday, June 8, 2005 11:26 PM

Note: To everyone, actually... Please read the article in the thread 'Politics is a Disease', it may help shed some light on what we're doing on these threads ( that is, if you haven't already read it, of course).

Too stoopid to drag the link here Chrisisall

PIRATEJENNY

Wednesday, June 8, 2005 11:42 PM

Quote:
Your post saddens me because it sounds like you've come to believe the misrepresentations so prevelant in the MSM and others. I can understand it though, they have been repeated so many times.

I ask you to questions the assertions, look for the canards, and not to give up hope. The US is a force for good in the world, President Bush is an honest man, and removing Saddam was the right thing to do regardless of the steady drumbeat of the naysayers pounding away.

I am not giving up.

Andrew Lynch

Oh geez...

I commend Connor Flynn for stripping himself of the labels that divide..and realizing he's been a tool, the man is waking up and opening his eyes...that doesn't mean he's giving up

RUE

Thursday, June 9, 2005 3:43 AM

Just a brief digression up front regarding "China trudging along":

An analysis I heard the other day is that the world is at peak oil production now, and soon it will see a single digit (1 - 9%) but inexorable decline in oil production year to year. (Many data points re regional/continental oil production were given, which is where I got the earlier example that the Middle East has already passed peak oil.)

China, which is trying to ramp up as a dominant world-class manufacturing economy (an end I had previously thought as inevitable), will be caught short and unable to challenge established economies.

OTOH those economies (first world) will fall rapidly into disarray as national and international economic/social structures (those dependent on cheap transportation like export manufacturing, mega-chains and suburbs) implode. (The erstwhile middle class will of course become impoverished.)

So, when it comes to China's ascendancy, the analysis is that China will be too late to become a mfg economy vs oil production, and it will wither before its time.

Specifically re the minutes (DSM), I think it was clearly and consistently expressed that the US DID decide to go to war before evidence, and that intelligence was being slanted to support that conclusion. The reading isn't dependent on interpreting a single word ('fixed'), it's in the entire content of the minutes.

However, there is enough correspondance in this case between the British use of 'fixed' and the American use. To 'fix on' means to target or emphasize, but that's not what was in the minutes. The phrase was 'fix around' - ie fudge.

PREV PAGE 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 NEXT PAGE