Is this a Sith plot hole? *spoliers for SW*
POSTED BY: Starrbaby
UPDATED: Friday, June 3, 2005 20:21
VIEWED: 9073
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I'm not a Star Wars guru by any means, but here's a question I had - isn't it strange that in Empire Strikes Back Vader knows that Luke is his son?
At the end of Sith, Palpatine told Vader he accidently killed Padme, which necessarily includes his unborn child (he was only aware of one at the time).
Was it explained anywhere how he found out?
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Unfortunately most of the continuity in Star Wars is riddled to pieces. It takes them 20 odd years to build the first Death Star then less than 3 to build the second one? How on earth is Anakin "a great pilot" when he's really just doing the equivalent of go-karting? Still, it just gives them the opportunity to write more books filling in the blanks.
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Quote:Comic series from Dark Horse (in another city right now, so I can't go into more detail).
Originally posted by Tiger:
I'm not a Star Wars guru by any means, but here's a question I had - isn't it strange that in Empire Strikes Back Vader knows that Luke is his son?
At the end of Sith, Palpatine told Vader he accidently killed Padme, which necessarily includes his unborn child (he was only aware of one at the time).
Was it explained anywhere how he found out?
Vader catches a Rebel pilot and asks who destroyed the Death Star at Yavin. The pilot says "Skywalker," before dying. Vader does a little research (backtracking where said Skywalker came from [Tatooine. And he showed up with Obi-Wan. You don't think. . .]), then the Emperor confirms it.
Of course, this was written before the prequel, and Lucas has proven that he's not willing to follow the continuity rules he himself established. It is possible however to assume that Vader assumed that the child had been recovered (or that Padmé had survived long enough to give birth).
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We applied the cortical electrodes but were unable to get a neural reaction from either patient.
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Vader probably "felt" that it was true when he met Luke.
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OK, just to go back to the original topic (sorry - different time zones & all hence delay in replying...), here's an extract from the shooting script of ROTJ:
[q] LUKE
Leia... do you remember your mother? Your
real mother?
LEIA
Just a little bit. She died when I was very
young.
LUKE
What do you remember?
LEIA
Just...images, really. Feelings.
LUKE
Tell me.
LEIA
(a little surprised at his insistence)
She was very beautiful. Kind, but...sad.
(looks up) Why are you asking me all this?
He looks away.
LUKE
I have no memory of my mother. I never knew
her.[/q]
Now I'll admit that the "images, feelings" bit could tie in with the theory that she felt her presence through the Force. But to me the crucial point, as I stated above, is that Luke is after actual details about his mother - not vague images.
Besides which, wasn't Luke sharing the same womb as Leia? If she had those memories, why didn't he? and again, when Leia said her mother died when she was very young - this to me means a toddler, not when she was about 30 seconds old.
This isn't so much pointed at this thread, but from comments elsewhere it seems people are trying to twist events in the original films to tie in with the later ones (eg "Look at Ben's face when he first sees R2D2 - it's obvious he recognises him". Really?). I don't know how much of the back story George Lucas had in mind when he created the original films (we all know Star Wars went through several incarnations) but I can't believe the Padme-Anakin story existed in it's final form by the time ROTJ hit theatres.
As far as I'm concerned, this is (retrospective?!) continuity error but hey, that's just my opinion and in any event it didn't spoil my enjoyment of the film. Actually, I was more curious why Owen & Beru told Luke he was their nephew instead of pretending he was their son, which would have been a better cover.
As always feel free to argue!
Love the "General Grievous is Darth Maul" idea though...!
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Quote:
Unfortunately most of the continuity in Star Wars is riddled to pieces. It takes them 20 odd years to build the first Death Star then less than 3 to build the second one? How on earth is Anakin "a great pilot" when he's really just doing the equivalent of go-karting? Still, it just gives them the opportunity to write more books filling in the blanks.
I went and saw eposide III , although I've nerver seen epi I & II..of course like most I've seen the orginal Star Wars, Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi, I'm a Harrison Ford fan what can I say. I felt like I had to see the last movie because,well Star Wars is as American as Apple pie..and its sort of an end of an era!!, and I've always found Darth Vader one of the more interesting charactors, and since this was about him I wanted to see it.
And while I know I'm making more of this then I should, and I do feel that Stars Wars should be accepted for what it is... and on its own terms..
I still felt that the story was lacking. Everything seemed to be happening a little to fast, and I didn't feel that there was enough investment in the charactors ... especially Anikan Skywalker and Padime( like I said I know I'm making to much of this) but I left the theater wanting to know more about them, more about their love story..and I defintely thought that Anikan SkyWalker's seduction into the Darkside..should have been just that..more of a seduction...they should have focused more on that and went into more detail,most of the movie seemed contrived which I,m guessing it was and the scene close to the end when Darth vader comes out with the Black mask..and he screams NO at Padime death..that was just cheesy!!! I also feel it could have been more intense
The only charactor I did end up caring about was Anikan Skywalker, I actually wanted him to suceed!!..and I don't think I was suppose to feel that way...lol after all the Darkside is bad...but it was more interesting
the other charactors were just there even though I was familer with Obi Wan konobi..and Yoda from the orginal series..!!! but anywho
I just feel the movie would have been better if they had focused more on Anikan and his being seduced into the Darkside!!
having said all that in the end I did accept and enjoy it for what it was and is!!
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Leia says "She died when I was very little." And "She seemed...sad somehow."
While its stretching a point, "died when I was very little" could have ment "died when I was born."
Its also very likely leia had seen holograms of her mother, and thats where her images of padme came from. So no, its not explicity said anywhere that she had direct memories of padme or that padme died when leia was a toddler.
"Also? I can kill you with my brain."
-River
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To respond to a few of these questions and issues:
1-The inconsistency with respect to Leia's memories of Padme are bothersome, if if you squint, you can ALMOST make it work. And, hey, it comes from the same scene where Leia says she always knew, on some level, that Luke was her brother. THEN WHY DID YOU FRENCH HIM ON HOTH? I find that continuity error (which is in a much closer timespan) more annoying.
2-Vader knowing about Luke in ESB: As pointed out, in the EU continuity, we see Vader track down this individual who is strong in the Force and learning about him. Also, the new version of ESB redoes one of the scenes between the Emperor and Vader to show us Palpatine telling Vader, and Vader saying it's impossible but accepting it nonetheless.
3-Why Uncle Owen rather than Dad? No real answer for that one, and I find it a little annoying, but not to a movie-disrupting extent. Maybe Owen and/or Beru are medically incapable of having children (since, hey, they never do), and decided that the uncle/aunt thing would be an easier cover if Luke ever found out that medical fact? Keep in mind also that Anakin Skywalker is a folk hero in Mos Espa (his mother tells him he gave hope to those who had none), so perhaps they felt that someone might eventually note a family resemblence and comment on it. Which, of course, then brings up the question: Why doesn't Luke know more about his famous dad?
4-Anakin as a master pilot: Well, he's not, really. He can just see the future for a split second, which allows him to react LIKE a master pilot. My belief is that it's the same thing with is sword fighting. A lot of fans have made the assertion that Anakin is supposed to a swordfighter almost on par with Mace and Yoda, but I don't see it. He just knows where to hit and when to dodge because he instinctively knows what his opponent is going to do. From Ben's point of view, though, it's much easier to tell Luke, who knows very little about the details of the Force, that his dad was a great pilot (which we do see demonstrated in Eps I and III, and also in a LOT of the EU material), than to explain that he's mildly precognitive. I mean, the kid's already buying a lot without asking questions...
5-Why did the first Death Star take so much longer than the second one? Well, for one thing, we don't know that it did. There's no reason to believe that they didn't start building a second Death Star a few years after the first one, and just kept the project completely secret. Further, if you really stretch, there's no reason to assume that the DS we see at the end of ROTS is the same one used in ANH. They could have gone through fifteen different models getting to the final version that ultimately worked. And, let's be honest, anyone who's ever built a model, put together a puzzle, etc, knows that the second one is easier than the first because you know shortcuts and tricks that didn't exist before. You just know how to do it better. 20 years as opposed to 3 years is a little bit of a stretch, but I think there are a number of plausible explanations. Note that many folk have also put forth the idea that the scene at the end of ROTS occurs out of continuity, years after the movie.
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If Leia can somehow, thru the Force or "genetic memory" inherit the bad donut hairdo - I really don't have much of a problem w/ her gaining images of Padme thru the same route 
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Quote:
Originally posted by Flechette:
If Leia can somehow, thru the Force or "genetic memory" inherit the bad donut hairdo - I really don't have much of a problem w/ her gaining images of Padme thru the same route
OK, you've convinced me
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