The Theme of Forgiveness in Whedonland

POSTED BY: dietcoke
UPDATED: Wednesday, April 27, 2005 08:38
VIEWED: 3872
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DIETCOKE

Tuesday, April 26, 2005 3:18 PM

I was just thinking about all the things that various characters do, i.e. kill people, become super evil, leave people at the alter, use people for purely selfish reasons, steal their children, and of course offer up crew members to the Alliance....and yet no matter what, they are forgiven enough to comeback into the group. (That was really a run-on sentence wasn't it?)

On the other hand, you have Giles who really never forgave Angel for killing his girlfriend and torturing him for hours. Everytime Angel called Giles for help you could always feel the tension....

So, what do you think Whedon is trying to say about forgiveness?

MANWITHPEZ

Tuesday, April 26, 2005 3:36 PM

Offhand, I think forgiveness in Whedonland is a highly conditional and subjective thing. Mal keeps Jayne around knowing that someday he's probably going to try and screw him over. Its just that he's been able to manage it so far.

Giles dopes Buffy for the episode Helpless, and he is forgiven. Buffy seems to pick and choose who or why she forgives. She can't seem to forgive Faith for using her (Buffy's) body to sleep with Riley, but takes her in season 7 out of necessity. She has a problem with Angel and Faith's interaction when Faith thought Angel was Angelus in season 3, and can't seem to completely forgive Angel. Anya killed very possible thousands of people in her time on earth, but she is allowed into the fold, and don't get me started on Spike.

For me, the least sensible showing of nonforgiveness was when the Scoobies, led by Giles refuse to help Angel when Fred is dying because they still work at Wolfram and Hart! I couldn't believe what I was hearing, and I certainly couldn't understand it. Then of course, Wes's unbelievably strange stabbing of Gunn. Of course, it just seemed that way to me. It seemed that Gunn had to work harder for forgiveness. He did, and that was a fact. Wes didn't after he stole Connor, to me, as a father, a much less forgivable crime. It saddened me to see Angel's reaction to what Wes had done, even knowing why, but I could understand it.

Then again, this one requires some thought. Who knows...Give me some time!

Kaylee: "What's so damn important about being proper? It don't mean nothing out here in the black."
Simon: "It means more out here. It's all I have..."

MANWITHPEZ

Tuesday, April 26, 2005 3:38 PM

Offhand, I think forgiveness in Whedonland is a highly conditional and subjective thing. Mal keeps Jayne around knowing that someday he's probably going to try and screw him over. Its just that he's been able to manage it so far.

Giles dopes Buffy for the episode Helpless, and he is forgiven. Buffy seems to pick and choose who or why she forgives. She can't seem to forgive Faith for using her (Buffy's) body to sleep with Riley, but takes her in season 7 out of necessity. She has a problem with Angel and Faith's interaction when Faith thought Angel was Angelus in season 3, and can't seem to completely forgive Angel. Anya killed very possible thousands of people in her time on earth, but she is allowed into the fold, and don't get me started on Spike. And, let's not forget Willow. She SKINNED a man alive. Sure, he might have deserved it, but still...SKINNED! And, then she tried to destroy the world. Came closer than damn near anybody on the show. Welcomed back with open arms...She's Will, after all.

For me, the least sensible showing of nonforgiveness was when the Scoobies, led by Giles refuse to help Angel when Fred is dying because they still work at Wolfram and Hart! I couldn't believe what I was hearing, and I certainly couldn't understand it. Then of course, Wes's unbelievably strange stabbing of Gunn. Of course, it just seemed that way to me. It seemed that Gunn had to work harder for forgiveness. He did, and that was a fact. Wes didn't after he stole Connor, to me, as a father, a much less forgivable crime. It saddened me to see Angel's reaction to what Wes had done, even knowing why, but I could understand it.

Then again, this one requires some thought. Who knows...Give me some time!

Kaylee: "What's so damn important about being proper? It don't mean nothing out here in the black."
Simon: "It means more out here. It's all I have..."

MANWITHPEZ

Tuesday, April 26, 2005 3:41 PM

Aw crap! Double post...that was supposed to be an edit! I added new stuff about Willow, but I still need time to think about this one. Watching season 3 of Buffy will help, I think. Which is what I'm doing with now.

Kaylee: "What's so damn important about being proper? It don't mean nothing out here in the black."
Simon: "It means more out here. It's all I have..."

CARTAGIA

Tuesday, April 26, 2005 4:06 PM

If you take Wesley and Gun's cases and put them side by side, there is a difference in the motivations. Wes, at the time, thought that he was doing the right thing. Turns out he was wrong, but all of the evidence pointed that Angel was gonna kill Conner. Wes thought that he was saving him.

Gun, on the other hand, seemed more motivated by personal gain. He couldn't stand going back to being the thug again, and so he made the devil's bargain. He KNEW someone was going to pay the price for his knowledge. He just thought it was gonna be some nameless, faceless person.

Plus, there was the fact that stabbing Wes was kinda pointless. He had already gotten his throat slashed. Plus, I would imagine that it's hard to stay mad at a guy who saved you from a watery tomb after you've been down there for 3 months or so. Angel did try to stay mad at him, even after that... but he kept needing him.

Simon: I've never shot anyone before.

Book: I was there, son. I'm fair sure you haven't shot anyone yet.

DIETCOKE

Tuesday, April 26, 2005 4:14 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by manwithpez:
Offhand, I think forgiveness in Whedonland is a highly conditional and subjective thing. Mal keeps Jayne around knowing that someday he's probably going to try and screw him over. Its just that he's been able to manage it so far.

Giles dopes Buffy for the episode Helpless, and he is forgiven. Buffy seems to pick and choose who or why she forgives. She can't seem to forgive Faith for using her (Buffy's) body to sleep with Riley, but takes her in season 7 out of necessity. She has a problem with Angel and Faith's interaction when Faith thought Angel was Angelus in season 3, and can't seem to completely forgive Angel. Anya killed very possible thousands of people in her time on earth, but she is allowed into the fold, and don't get me started on Spike.

For me, the least sensible showing of nonforgiveness was when the Scoobies, led by Giles refuse to help Angel when Fred is dying because they still work at Wolfram and Hart! I couldn't believe what I was hearing, and I certainly couldn't understand it. Then of course, Wes's unbelievably strange stabbing of Gunn. Of course, it just seemed that way to me. It seemed that Gunn had to work harder for forgiveness. He did, and that was a fact. Wes didn't after he stole Connor, to me, as a father, a much less forgivable crime. It saddened me to see Angel's reaction to what Wes had done, even knowing why, but I could understand it.

Then again, this one requires some thought. Who knows...Give me some time!

Kaylee: "What's so damn important about being proper? It don't mean nothing out here in the black."
Simon: "It means more out here. It's all I have..."

Great ideas! Wes stabbing Gunn really took me by surprise. But Angel tried to kill him out of grief so it makes sense. More often then not, people who are abused, abuse others.

DIETCOKE

Tuesday, April 26, 2005 4:15 PM

And please DO give us your take on Spike. Go ahead....let me get you started!

ODDNESS2HER

Tuesday, April 26, 2005 4:46 PM

I'm reminded of Giles' remark that you don't forgive people because they deserve it, but because they need it. It's an act of compassion that says more about the forgiver than the forgived.

MANWITHPEZ

Tuesday, April 26, 2005 4:52 PM

All right...Spike:

My attitude towards Spike would have to align itself with Xander's most of the time. Xander seemed to be grounded more in reality than the rest of the team. He was always cautious of Spike most of the time, and most of the time he ever "got physical" with Spike (while chipped) was anger and impulsiveness coming out in him. Much like when he found out that Spike and Anya were doing the deed in the Magic Shop. But (as stated) he never forgot what Spike was. He was always cautious of Angel, but that spoke more to jealousy than anything else, I think.

Spike, until season 7, is a vampire as vampire's are usually presented in Buffy...but a little more dangerous. He's killed 2 slayers in the past, and not very sorry about it. Along with Darla, Angelus and Drusilla, he cut a swath through Europe and Asia, killing indiscriminately. Two factors kept him from killing Buffy for the time that he was able to do it. Buffy's friends, and his inability to stay patient and see his plans through. He's seen doing this in both Buffy (School Hard) and Angel (In The Dark ((an excellent episode, I think))) The second he thinks his chip is no longer functioning in season 6, he goes out to try and kill someone. While he begged for forgiveness from his past deeds from Buffy, he was never, ever really sorry about anything he had done. I think this shows itself the most in season 7, when Wood tries to kill him. Wood plays the hypnotic song for Spike, not to try to get him to attack, but, much like Connor and Angel, wanted to see Spike's true face. I think Wood was more than justified in trying to kill Spike, as I feel Giles was justified in trying to assist him. Spike lets Wood live, but injured, and threatens to kill him if he tries again. Spike killed Wood's mother!

Does Spike redeem himself? Yes, I think, but for the wrong reasons. I don't think he played his role in destroying the ubervamps unselfishly. He did it for Buffy. He knew he was probably going to die, but how many times has he stated that that was how he wanted to die. Not ratting out Dawn was another step. Also for Buffy, though. I also don't think Buffy ever really forgives Spike for the things he's done, and that's a fact. She sleeps with him continuosly because he's the only one that can drive her from apathy, given the character she had displayed during the show's run to that point, I think that might have been the thing that hurt her the most. Buffy was always vivacious, full of zest for life and looking forward to its choices and where they would take her (even if it did seem to overwhelm her from time to time.) After she came back in season 6, that was missing from her, and she took up with Spike to feel anything...even pain or hurt.

After Spike tries to rape Buffy, and don't forget that's exactly what he was doing...I never could understand why they let him back...soul or not. Individuals with souls are capable of great evil, even he didn't live up to it just yet (he would eventually, even if he was subborned into it) didn't mean he wasn't going to eventually. Should Spike have been a Scooby? I don't think so...even if I can understand them needing him around for the muscle. Personally, I think Riley (a character I never really cared for) should have killed Spike when he had the chance...Whether Spike could have been redeemed (Like I said, I think he was, but for the wrong reasons) or not.

Kaylee: "What's so damn important about being proper? It don't mean nothing out here in the black."
Simon: "It means more out here. It's all I have..."

SICKDUDE

Tuesday, April 26, 2005 5:09 PM

Besides forgiveness, there's also the related concept of turning former enemies into allies. And Joss does this all the time. The only other creator that does this much of it (that I can think of) is Akira Toriyama of Dragonball fame. Makes me wonder if Joss watched Dragonball, especially after Andrew compares himself to Vegetta. Anyone else ever wonder this?

"Don't say 'ka' until you've tried it." Daniel Jackson

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