A good death for the Pope? - I'm confused

POSTED BY: Geezer
UPDATED: Saturday, March 28, 2026 18:55
VIEWED: 4921
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WALKERHOUND

Saturday, April 2, 2005 7:57 PM

“your disagreeing with him doesn't mean he is crazy”
“but could we raise the civility bar here, please”

darkjester, I applaud the attempt but your probably swimming up stream here.

Note I’m not singling out any body particularly that has posted on this thread so far. Just the general trend in this part of the board

DANFAN

Sunday, April 3, 2005 6:10 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Conscience:
Feeding someone is not extraordinary means to save a person's life.

I'll step out on a limb here and offer some thoughts I've been turning over in my head since the Terry Schiavo situation overpowered the news...

I've seen a lot of debate here and elsewhere over the intrinsic difference between removing "artificial life support" and removing a feeding tube. I'm not sure I see the difference that is so obvious to others.

Handing someone a ham sandwich and a glass of water is certainly not “extraordinary means” for preserving life. But puncturing abdominal tissues and running a tube directly into the stomach of someone without the remaining brain function to even swallow? Sounds pretty extraordinary to me. Much like electrically stimulating the heart or pumping air into and out of lungs that no longer receive the signals needed to operate on their own. In fact, artificial respiration may be nearly exactly like artificial nutrition… pumping a substance (food/air) into an organ (stomach/lung) still capable of processing the substance, but trapped in a body incapable of delivering the substance to the organ.

The prevailing complaint I’ve seen with removing feeding tubes is that "It's inhuman to starve someone to death!" Better to stop their hearts? Better to suffocate them? If the body can't do it for itself, then doing it for the body is providing artificial life support.

As near as I can tell, there are two significant differences:

1) Heart beat and breathing are autonomic functions. Swallowing seems like a more complex activity, requiring higher brain functions, perhaps up to a low level of consciousness to perform.

2) Stopping someone’s heart kills in moments. Stopping someone’s breathing kills in minutes. Stopping someone’s nutrition kills in days or weeks.

Is it the time involved that makes stopping nutrition monstrous? If the higher level applications (mind, personality, memory) have terminated, and only the firmware (basic metabolic functions) is still running, then who is home to tell whether its moments or days?

That said, I too feel a little squeamish about all the pain signals that are surely generated in the days/weeks that someone in a PVS starves to death, even if we think no one’s home. If that person had clearly stated a desire not to be kept alive artificially, and their heart/lungs were still operating, I’d lean towards a morphine OD. And yes, I feel squeamish about that as well.

I am open to arguments that differentiate between artificial feeding and artificial heartbeat/respiration. My own thoughts haven’t led to a compelling difference for me.

STARRBABY

Sunday, April 3, 2005 11:06 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by GinoBiffaroni:
After saying this, If I was in the same state Terri Schiavo was in. I would want to go. My wife, inlaws, grandparents, have all expressed the same opinion.

The problem I have with the situation is why remove the feeding tube and starve her to death over days and weeks ?

If in the same, I would want the overdose of morphine or something similar. We put down our dogs and cats if they are in incurable pain, and I like them alot more than many people I have met.

Crazy

I agree w/ you completely. We put down our animals and even our convicted felons in a humane and swift manner. However, slow starvation is acceptable for an innocent woman?

PIRATEJENNY

Tuesday, April 5, 2005 10:46 AM

Quote:
By the way, the Pope will be in heaven with the Lord, while someday that murdering murderer Michael Schiavo will burn a deep level of hell.

OH Gawd the humanity!!!

you can tell I'm not religious!!!

PIRATEJENNY

Tuesday, April 5, 2005 10:54 AM

Quote:
If that person had clearly stated a desire not to be kept alive artificially, and their heart/lungs were still operating, I’d lean towards a morphine OD. And yes, I feel squeamish about that as well.

ok maybe I'm going a little off topic, why is everyone so scared of death..we are all going to die its just a fact..its how it is, this woman's quality of life should be the overriding factor..and she wasnt living at all , she was just exsisting..not living I think everyone can agree on that point.....the larger issue here that hasn't been addressed is peoples abilty to cope with the fact that...death comes to us all. Its unhealthy the way we don't respect death

HERO

Tuesday, April 5, 2005 4:29 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by piratejenny:
...its how it is, this woman's quality of life should be the overriding factor..and she wasnt living at all , she was just exsisting..not living I think everyone can agree on that point...

That's the problem. Not everyone agreed on that point. The parents claimed that she was more then just existing. They claimed she had limited function and that more could be recovered through therapy. The husband disagreed and the treating physicians were split. There was so much bull flying around from both sides, the court should have held an evidentiary hearing to sort it out.

Coulda been done that Monday after Congress acted. Quick hearing. One day. Order a PET and CAT scan, get results and another hearing on Tuesday. Decision Tuesday night...all without reinserting the tube, unless the test came back positive.

Quote:

Its unhealthy the way we don't respect death

More unhealthy to not respect life.

H

RUE

Tuesday, April 5, 2005 7:21 PM

Everybody dies, and of what I've seen, for the most part, death is not pretty, dignified, or comfortable.
There is an article in the NYTimes today about what is coma, persistant vegetative state, and minimally conscious, expected recovery times, types of brain damage associated with each etc. The conclusion is that Mrs Schiavo was in a persistent vegetative state with no hope of recovery.
But I know Bush is an intellectual and a neurologist, and has studied this deeply. Not only that, he believes in life so much he abhors war and the death penalty, and funds medical care for all. And he is so wise and all-knowing, he can decide these matters for individual families. So I guess we should just listen to him.

SIGNYM

Tuesday, April 5, 2005 7:22 PM

Hero- The court DID wade through the evidence, including the doctor's evaluations. Among other things, it found Hammesfahr (one of the doctors who said Terri could improve) to be a fraud. (He operates a cash in advance clinic, and despite the fact that he claims "hundreds" of success stories he has not published a study- or even a case history- in a peer reviewed journal.)

We tend to treat our animals better than people. When my cat's megacolon got to the point where he could no longer be treated and he was getting thin, I took him to the vets. They gave him a tranquilizer and he fell asleep, purring, under my hands. Then they stopped his heart. That was the best death I ever saw.

PIRATEJENNY

Wednesday, April 6, 2005 6:19 AM

Quote:
They gave him a tranquilizer and he fell asleep, purring, under my hands. Then they stopped his heart. That was the best death I ever saw.

now if we could all be so lucky, if I'm ever terminally ill or very old and on my last legs, I would love to be able to just have an overdose of morphine and go quietly in my sleep

instead of focusing so much on existing and life..we should focus on quality of life..and giving people the option of the most humane and peaceful and painless death as possible!!!

XENOCIDE

Wednesday, April 6, 2005 8:54 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by DarkJester:
Conscience wrote:
Quote:
Geezer, you out of your mind. Nobody's removed the Pope's feeding tube. Nobody's starving him to death.

Feeding someone is not extraordinary means to save a person's life.

If the Holy Father's heart stops, then THAT is a natural death. If he's starved, then that's murder.

By the way, the Pope will be in heaven with the Lord, while someday that murdering murderer Michael Schiavo will burn a deep level of hell.

Conscience also wrote:

Quote:
OMG, another crazy person. That have not taken him to the hospital because he specifically told them not to when he was still conscious.

He has doctors with him at his apartment, they've practically turned his home into his own private hospital.

Get the facts first before you post, pal.

Sorry Conscience, your disagreeing with him doesn't mean he is crazy, and doesn't warrant name-calling or implications of stupidity. You may raise some valid points, but could we raise the civility bar here, please?

Edited to add: And yes Geezer, it is ironic that many people who are "pro-life" also favor the death penalty, and that the current President who came down on the side of life in the Terry Schiavo case signed a bill while Governor that allows doctors to over-rule family members and disconnect life-support for certain patients in Texas hospitals. Irony is alive and well in America.

MAL "You only gotta scare him."
JAYNE "Pain is scary..."

DJ,

Just ignore Conscience. She only comes to call names and do some flamebaiting. She bails once conversation starts.

-Eli

If voting mattered, they'd make it illegal.

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