Ward Churchill - NOT a Native American? Fire him.
POSTED BY: AURaptor
UPDATED: Tuesday, July 26, 2005 03:59
VIEWED: 16391
PAGE 8 of 16
Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
But I come to this board and what I find is right the opposite. You’re trying to deflect the argument away from Churchill with some thin ‘Vast Right-Wing Conspiracy’ argument. SignyN is outwardly defending Churchill, and Rue is trying to deflect the issue to some Guckert thing while giving me some Orwellian crap about not disagreeing with what Churchill says. Now I don’t believe that any of you actually believe that condoning murder is a good thing(an assumption on my part), so why is it such a difficult thing for us to agree on this matter?
You're absolutely right that I have avoided making any judgement on Ward Churchill's statements. This is intentional on my part. I hinted at part of the reasoning in my last post but I'll try to go into more detail. There are certain topics that I personally think are extremely difficult to discuss (not argue, discuss - I love a good argument as much as the next fireflyfan
) in the message board format and so I just opt out. September 11th is one of them. I come from a culture (by way of training) that encourages brainstorming. One of the trilogy of "rules" is to withhold judgement - lay anything out on the table, whether it's offensive, stupid, or whatever. This is the hardest thing to get used to if you have never done it before (and something that I have to continually work at). It's hard enough to do when all we're talking about is generating ideas for redesigning a mechanism. And this absolutely doesn't work (and shouldn't) for arguments - which is mostly what we do in this area of the board (which is a good thing - in my opinion).
Couple that with the problems of asynchronous communication that are present in a message board and I just don't want to go down that road. How many of our discussions devolve into a back and forth based on one sentence? (I'm guilty as charged).
I'd love to brainstorm on reasons why the hijackers did what they did. The simple, "they hate America and our freedom" just doesn't go far enough for me. But I'm not going to do it on a message board. If we were sitting down having a beer, it would be a different story.
So...
I wouldn't have said what Churchill did. That's about as far as I'll go.
This probably doesn't hang together well. I just wanted to quickly get back to you because you're absolutely right that I haven't addressed Churchill's statements. I'm not sure I would classify it as a deflection since I do think that there are organizations out there dedicated to identifying liberal academics and working to change, or bypass, the tenure process. I don't know if this qualifies as a vast right-wing conspiracy or not...
editted to add: There is no way in hell, in my mind, to justify the terrorists' actions on September 11th. Nobody deserves to die for any reason in my book. I just don't understand how they could justify it to themselves. And when I don't understand something I want to change that state.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Trying to make a rational point here...
I don't have the full text of what Churchill said, so I can't either defend or castigate it. It may be that what he said was "This is how THEY see it."
I personally don't condone the murder of innocent or even complicit civilians. If I did, then I would be calling for the execution of all Sunnis, since they benefitted from Saddam's rule whether they actively participated or not. But whatever ill we have done around the world has evoked a sense of emnity and outrage. And since we are a democracy, and the government does this with our tacit or explicit approval, we are therefore complicit with its actions and that was my point.
Does this mean we all deserve death? No. Does this mean we are innocent? No.
However, Auraptor is demonstrating a pretty obvious double standard here that is typical of the far right. The Swift Boat Veterans for Truth told some pretty damnable lies. So did Bush. So did Guckert. It just doesn't seem to ring any bells with Auraptor that those are consequential lies because THAT'S DIFFERENT (somehow). His emotions are clouding his reason.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
The Swift Boat Veterans for Truth told some pretty damnable lies. So did Bush. So did Guckert. It just doesn't seem to ring any bells with Auraptor that those are consequential lies because THAT'S DIFFERENT (somehow). His emotions are clouding his reason.
Cite some lies, please. I'm all eyes.
(wonders what Bush or Guckert has to do w/ the issue of Tonto )
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
I and others already did. You blew past them because they were "irrelevant" or something. Please read previous posts to find the info you requested.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Finn,
Don't be childish. You use words like: but, although, however, yet, still etc to negate what you said earlier.
A simple example: "Yes, but ... " translates as "No."
Most haven't formalized their perception of this use, but they understand it when they use it, and when it's used on them.
So the statement "I don’t know who all is calling for his dismissal. I think that if he acquired his position through fraud and that can be determined, then I think he should be dismissed immediately. Other then that, I’m not going to call for his dismissal based on the kinds of comments he’s made. Although, given the lunacy of some of his statements I can certainly understand if the tax payers of Colorado don’t want to pay this guy to teach their children."
Let's see, what else .... Actually, if you go back and, you know, READ what I read, I said the baying right-wing vigilantes were calling for Churchill's dismissal NOT b/c of what he said, but b/c of how he got his job. Certainly you are part of that group.
But don't worry about your postings, or mine. I think most people here have well-founded ideas about you and what you stand for. There's not too much either of us could say to change them.
NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
I and others already did. You blew past them because they were "irrelevant" or something. Please read previous posts to find the info you requested.
Not one has ever been posted. I'm beyond tired of this game, as well as this thread. I'm done w/ it.
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Trying to make a rational point here...
I don't have the full text of what Churchill said, so I can't either defend or castigate it. It may be that what he said was "This is how THEY see it."
It's right here.
http://www.kersplebedeb.com/mystuff/s11/churchill.html
I had not read the entire thing either, until now. I don't believe that it could possibly be described as anything other than a "Rant". If this is a sample of Mr. Churchill's normal point of view, he makes even you and Rue look like knuckle-dragging ultra-rightwing neo-cons.
While I firmly respect Mr. Churchill's right to say whatever he wants, anyone with half an ounce of sense would have to know that such a screed would draw a negative response from a large portion of the public, not just the Right. My cynical side suggests that this was the plan, and that he wondered why it took so long.
I am having a hard time finding Mr. Churchill's curriculum vitae anywhere, although it is exhaustively discussed. Just google "ward churchill" "curriculum vitae" for a load of opinions. The American Indian Movement doesn't think much of him. http://www.aimovement.org/moipr/churchill05.html
"Keep the Shiny side up"
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Auraptor- Since your vision is selective to the point where you (apparently) literally can't even see printed words, how can you possibly respond to discussion in a meaningful way? All I can say is-
Don't let the door bump you on the way out.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Geezer- Hi.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Hey Geezer! Good to see you around. Thanks for the link, I had only read excerpts before that.
I've been reading through it (in bits and pieces) and I have to say it does sound like a polemic. I wonder if Churchill might be projecting Indian-American relations onto current affairs a bit much.
It doesn't surprise me that AIM is not a fan of Churchill's. He's definitely one of those people who do not tone down their rhetoric for political expediency.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME