Season 4 opinions?
POSTED BY: RhymePhile
UPDATED: Saturday, June 25, 2005 17:25
VIEWED: 21761
PAGE 9 of 10
Yay! Someone else who hates it :) My whole family used to watch Angel together but after seeing the abomination that is 'Rain of Fire', I was the only one left to suffer through the rest of it. Having said that I would say Buffy S6 is worse, maybe even S7 too - I'd have to rewatch them to be sure but I'm not going to be doing that any time soon...
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Quote:
Originally posted by Grounded:
**BILE ALERT**
- Angelus as a character is ruined. Angel and Angelus should NOT be kept separate. They are intricately entwined personalities - the whole point of Angel's character is how close these two personas are to one another. That's what makes him dangerous for crying out loud! I also thought it was pretty weak how few people Angelus actually killed (if any - I have only watched these episodes once).
Right there with ya, brother.
One reason season 4 is my least favorite season out of the 5 (I still love it, but less than the other seasons) was Angelus. Two reasons:
-They constantly played up the "fact" that Angelus and Angel are completely seperate entities living in the same bodies - two personalities. Angel is not Angelus, and vice versa. If that's the case, then why does Angel feel bad about all of the things he did as Angelus? How many times have we seen Angel accused of doing something, and he says "I didn't have a choice, I didn't have a soul," instead of saying "Dude, it wasn't me, it was my split personality."
Angelus and Angel are two sides of the same coin. All Angelus is is Angel without a consience. When ensouled, Angel has a desire to do things like maim, torture, and kill, but his consience keeps him from doing it - likewise, his consience keeps him doing the right thing. It's not that cut and dry simple, but close enough.
-The way David Boreanez portrayed Angelus. Don't get me wrong, he did a good job...for a character that ISN'T Angelus. Take a look at Season 2 of Buffy, or the AtS season 1 episode Eternity to see what I mean. Angelus of season 4 was way too chatty, over-the-top. Angelus is supposed to be more of a quiet, contemplative guy, not a flashy, loud, annoying guy.
Another thing that bugged me about Season 4 was the story. It was going good, with the dark apocalypse, and the thing controlling Cordy, which, to me, suggested the First (which I think would have been a GREAT way to tie-in the shows without necassarily having to have an actual crossover). But...then we got Jasmine.
Now, the Jasmine episodes are good episodes, but the fact is, they came out of nowhere. Jasmine was in control of all the events of the season? Jasmine controlled the Beast, and Cordelia, and tried to recruit Angelus? The Beast and Angelus were crucial to Jasmine's plan, despite the fact that by the time it began to come to fruition, they were nowhere to be found? Everything that happened on the show was just to bring about Jasmine? ME can try to give me all of the "it was just birth pains" shite, but all of the apocalyptic stuff leading into the Jasmine arc made -no- sense whatsoever.
Simon: You...you came for us.
Mal: You're on my crew.
Simon: Right. I guess I just didn't...you don't even like me.
Mal: You're on my crew. Why we still talking about this?
-Safe
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As much as I dislike this season I do have to say that Orpheus was one of my favorite episodes of Angel. (Just say it rerun on Fox this weekend) It had everything. Faith and Willow guest star. We see Wesley being all dark and willing to sacrifice Faith to stop Angelus. We get more flashback info about Angel's life. A fight between Angel and Angelus. The interactions between Willow and Wesley , Willow and Fred etc. were great scenes. Just a great episode. Sucked me right in.
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Huh. I thought it stank, but I could have been on a bitterness overload at the time.
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Quote:
Originally posted by RhymePhile:
Personally, I think this season was a strong one, with a continuing arc that started, really, with Cordy's ascension in Season 3.
This be the first mistake (no offense) but the story acctualyl started in season 1. Seasons 1-3 are all leading up to season 4, Season 1 they meet Doyle, who has visions from the powers that be (one of which is jasmine... i think). Next Doyle transfers his visions to Cordy by kissing her right before he jumps to his heroic end. Season 2 and 3 Cordy has visions tells Angel Inc. where to go to find the helpless people. Then she starts to die because the human body cant withstand the visions so she decides to become part demon. Next Cordy is asscended so jasmine can put the final plans into place, Cordy then sleeps with conner impregnanting her with Jasmime.( this is in season 5 i think jasmine took control when cordy was asscended not sure though)
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I like how the entire season revolves around Cordy and the Beast (although we don't discover Cordy's duplicity until later).
Of course, the highlights of the entire season (for me) is the redemption of Wesley and the return of Angelus. I'm not sure if Angel's forgiving Wesley was all that convincing, though. Wes did save Angel's life when he didn't have to, but Angel was pretty riled for a while there. I wonder if he forgave him too easily.
Sometimes David Boreanaz can go over the top with Angelus, and there are moments of it during this season, but I really enjoy watching him portray Angelus. He does a great job of keeping Angel/Angelus completely separate, and gives Angelus a kind of wide-eyed wonder at being evil I find hilarious.
I'm sure I'm not alone in loving the episode "Awakening" when a shaman supposedly can extract Angel's soul and place it in a bottle; and "Spin the Bottle" when the gang reverts to teenagers; and "Apocalypse Nowish" with the shotgun-totin' Wesley (sorry, I love Wes). Ooh, and the return of Faith. Faith! This season (the good stuff) rocked.
I am soooo with u on this one that was a great season and sooooo well done but angel did forgive wes to quickely he took away angels only chance at a son EVER thast a pretty big thing.
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Okay, now what I didn't like: when the gang heads to Las Vegas to rescue Lorne from a casino. Gah, terrible. But the only really weak episode of the bunch until we get to...
Jasmine. When I first saw this, I was like, whaaaa? What the? It did surprise me that Connor and Angel bowed down when she was "born" and they didn't go after her. It was almost like a second season began right there. Weirdness. Of course, it is Gina Torres, but I didn't quite "get" where they were going with this. Angel shouldn't have killed her because she brought peace? Angel should have killed her because she was a demon? I never figured it out.
I have to disagree with you here, i acctually liked the las vegas episode, wasnt the best episode of teh season but it wasnt all that bad, kinda reminded me of "Jaynes Town" for some reason.
And angel didnt kill her because she brought peace or cause she was a demon he killed her because she took the human race as slaves (and demons too) and no one had any control, they should have the right to choose even if they make bad choices.
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And that whole arc sets up Connor's fall and the subsequent attaining of Wolfram & Hart, which in my opinion was a mistake, because now Angel and Co. had no evil "big brother" plotting over them. That leads into a fairly weak (IMO) Season 5 with stories that went nowhere and several really poor episodes because now Angel is in charge of the baddies.
Well i have to disagree on last time, I loved the last season the return of spike the great power angel had, the loss in faith of the shan shu (hmm sounds lil like shan yu dont it??) it was an awesome season the greatest ever made by joss though a lil rushed and he wasnt able to continue on and had to get rid of thing quickley(damn cancellation whats wrong wif the network)a
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I'm kinda sad I'm chiming in so late on this thread.
I posted a long rant on the Buffy board about how disappointed I was with season 7 Buffy. My opinion of season 4 Angel is very similar.
No one thing stands out as the single terrible mistake for angel season 4.(I maintain that the Kennedy/Willow relationship holds this distinction in Buffy 7) But as a whole, the entire story arc never made sense. It never gelled. To me it felt like a ship with no rudder, the story never progressed logically, you just kept jumping from one illogical plotline to another.
I mean lets think about it. Season 3 ended with Cordy assending. That was awsome. I liked it. But then she just comes back in S4. There's no reason offered. I initally thought that TPTB were punishing her for somehow influencing Angel's slot machine win in vegas, which would have made some sort of sense, but in the end no real reason was offered. And she was now possessed too. Again, flimsy reasons why.
Jasmine? When I saw this I was like whaaaa....? Come on...this is trash sci-fi. If I wanted trash I'd watch the 70's Battlestar Galactia reruns on the sci-fi channel(not knocking the new show, it's alright) The whole entire idea was just...silly. And again, illogical. I understand that Gina had a contract to fulfill as did Nathan. But in each case it was clear that writers just pulled characters out of the air to give them screentime. The entire time you watch you're not really suspending your disbelief. It just feels forced. Then just like Caleb in S7 buffy, once the contracted # of episodes is reached the writers dispose of the character. I feel betrayed when I consider this.
I was annoyed that Skip the demon was actually evil. It was so much better that this monster-ish guy actually served powers of good..it was just better storytelling. When we got the good/evil switcheroo it became trash writing, no surprises and no cool juxtapositions.
Connor. The most poorly developed character I've seen in awhile. This statement has utterly nothing to do with his foolish character behavior...I hated Kennedy too in S7 Buffy but have since stated that it's not for me to be upset at a show just because a character is grating. Connor was to be to AtS what Dawn was in BtVS. Dawn was developed correctly. Connor was a total waste. You never felt tied to him. When he suffered the memory wipe at the end I just felt like Angel writers had spent an entire season wasting my time and that they owed me something. I sensed that they tried to patch this up in S5, maybe because so many people were upset at the character. But again I'm not upset at the behavior...I'm upset about the development.
Gwen. What was the point here? Just side story? I guess I can swallow a side trek occasionally.
The beast. Worst Villian in the buffyverse. I'm so weary of invincible, unstoppable enemies. They just make everything feel fake and forced.
Lorne was totally underused. Just like spike in season 7 buffy. Lorne is a character that adds value to every scene he's in. He was needed in so many scenes I can't even begin to count and I won't.
There are a few redeaming qualities about the season. Some folks posted on this thread that they hated the Wes/Lilah sex scenes and his new attraction to handguns. Honestly I very much liked this Wesley. Man just think of how developed he has become since buffy season 3. I love good character development. I liked Angel's soul in the bottle. There were other tidbits scattered throughout too.
I need to qualify this season though. This was all being shot the same time Season 7 buffy was in production and also Firefly. It's clear to me that Joss had too much on his plate at once. I felt terrible watching season 7 buffy. Buffy was the show that I loved. Angel as a spin off didn't hurt as much but it still stung. However, when I consider what we all got out of it...Firefly...well perhaps it was worth it. I like to think Joss drained all the energy out of Angel 4 and buffy 7 and poured i
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Quote:
Originally posted by thiefjehat:
Lorne was totally underused. Just like spike in season 7 buffy. Lorne is a character that adds value to every scene he's in. He was needed in so many scenes I can't even begin to count and I won't.
Yeah this was a big one for me. When he was originally introduced, he was used to great effect, even though he wasn't in every episode. Once they brought him in full time they didn't seem willing to give him a solid storyline of his own and ended up letting him drift on in the background. I recently caught some repeats of S5 and totally forgot about some of the eps where he was completely cut out except a token couple of lines.
Although I agree with your Connor rant I'd have to say I don't think Dawn was developed at all correctly. She was on the show three years and did practically nothing.
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I agree with the Conner and Dawn annoying thing, but I think they were supposed to be annoying. They annoyed the other characters on the shows and we were just feeling what they were feeling. I think it was ment to be!
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Quote:
Originally posted by dietcoke:
I agree with the Conner and Dawn annoying thing, but I think they were supposed to be annoying. They annoyed the other characters on the shows and we were just feeling what they were feeling. I think it was ment to be!
I agree. The way the Connor character was written he was supposed to be annoying. He had been through some bad sh*t and was grappling with tough choices. He had been raised to hate his real father by a mad genius bent on revenge. Then when he finally meets his father and the rest of the gang, he was confronted with conflicting information. What he had been raised to think and what he was witnessing with his own eyes. Add that to a mind that is also struggling with adolescence in a strange new world and you get a kid who makes some bad and yes sometimes annoying choices.
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The only sovereign you can allow to rule you is reason!
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His annoyingness (!) doesn't really bother me - it's the fact that his character is totally changed between the end of S3 and the start of S4 without enough justification. Go rewatch Brave New World - S4 would have been brilliant if they'd stuck to the character's roots.
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