Someone is WRONG on the Internet!
POSTED BY: dreamtrove
UPDATED: Saturday, July 20, 2024 14:12
VIEWED: 4231
PAGE 7 of 8
Oh, and since flipping through the Rosseau Was Right page reminded me - if you wanna watch something really cool based around that theme, find yourself a copy of Scrapped Princess - it's pretty damn good.
Funny bit to that is that while I am a Rosseau-Kropotkinist, my ex is a Law-N-Order Hobbsiean, and part of WHY we are ex's is that every time she wound up afoul of the "Law-N-Order" she believed in she came face first with the corruption she was always calling me a nutter for admitting/acknowledging, you can imagine this didn't go over well, but anyhows...
I loaned her the series, and she was so moved by it she named one of her MMORPG characters after the main character of the series.
-Frem
I do not serve the Blind God.
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Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Magon
Not negotiating with Nazis because they were unreasonable was your whole premise. You started out by saying it was impossible.
Actually, you missed the point of my post. I said "if I join a debate with a nazi who thinks that all jews should be exterminated, and we try to find common ground.." I never said we should not have negotiated with Nazi Germany so I was puzzled why you went off half cocked into your history of of WW2, where incidentally you made a series of assumptions about my beliefs about Nazis and Germany and what the war was about, which I had never even stated. My mistake was joining a debate about some of your views on WW2, which in the end is a pretty fruitless exercise..
My argument has always been that there are some positions that you can't negotiate including the actually fact of violence. ie the extermination of the Jews. You can demand that it stops, but you can't negotiate it. I might have used (and probably wished I had) used an example of negotiating with a paedophile about abusing children, trying to find a middle ground.
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1) None of these predates 1938, so you missed my point or didn't read any of my posts
Molotov-Ribbentropp is 1939. I believe Germany also negotiated a neutrality agreement with Norway at that time and of course the surrender of many countries after that. But pretty much by the time Germany had broken all its non aggression agreements and begun invading country after country, they were seen (or rather Hitler was seen) as an power hungry aggressor who did not keep his word. You would have been an idiot to try and enter into negotiations with him. Your posts on how you would have negotiated with Hitler are naive at best, given the above record of breaking major agreements.
Quote:
2) The Munich Agreement is hardly a negotiation, it's concession. I detailed how I would negotiate, which was hard. This was a farce. No one asked anything of Germany, it was an elaborate rolling over to avoid going to war.
3) The Soviet Non-aggression pact was a wartime treaty, not a negotiation.
4) Yalta? You have to be kidding me. First, that's almost after the war, not before, that's hardly going to prevent the war, let alone all that went before it. Second, it was not a negotiation to try to limit soviet abuses, it was trading off the spoils of war.
The whole concept of diplomacy is to prevent disasters, not to settle who gets the spoils after everyone is dead.
So we've jumped all around the place again, but now you've gone from debate, to negotiation to diplomacy. If we jump back to negotiation, I've provided a definition.
ne•go•ti•ate
–verb (used without object)
1. to deal or bargain with another or others, as in the preparation of a treaty or contract or in preliminaries to a business deal.
–verb (used with object)
2. to arrange for or bring about by discussion and settlement of terms: to negotiate a loan.
3. to manage; transact; conduct: He negotiated an important business deal.
The above are still negotiations. Your argument that no one ever bothered to negotiate with either Nazi Germany or Stalin's Soviet Union is incorrect. Negotiations took place, and the fact that they were not satisfactory actually demonstrates the perils of negotiating with tyrants who use dirty tactics.
Negotiation has limits. As much as we'd all love to live in a perfect world where anything is possible, it's sad to say that there are people who don't honour agreements, who use violence to get what they want, and who bully others into doing what they want. Negotiating under these conditions is incredibly perilous, if not downright counterproductive and you end up with the type of agreements such as the ones above.
Quote:
Oh, that's just classic. The left is truly made of venom.
You know, I don't speak for all the left. We're kind of like individuals in that way ;) So pick at me if you don't like my style, but leave out the 'you lefties are all the same'. Incidentally, I don't c
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Quote:I don't think DT said or did any of the above. I interpreted his words differently.
Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
You minimise the Holocaust, you don't believe in the Final Solution, you say that the Jewish Hollywood has overplayed the situation, you shift the blame of murder of the Jewish people onto nameless corporations, you minimise the increasing persecution of Jewish people under the Nazis from the time they came to power. In fact you minimise the persecution per se by making comparisons with Mexicans in the US and Asians in Australia. You excuse Germany by stating that it was economic needs that led them to enslave (but did not mention murder) Jewish people.
I'm afraid that minimising, blame shifting, excusing and blaming Jewish media are all associated with people who deny the Holocaust, whether you find it offensive or not.
In my view, you have misinterpreted his words. Not only is this misinterpretation not accurate, it is quite insensitive given the personal suffering of his family.
In my view, insistence that YOUR interpretation of an author's words are more accurate than the author's own interpretation is very discourteous. In this case, it is hurtful.
--Can't Take (my gorram) Sky
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Just calling it as I see it. DT's responses are a continuaous minimisation and blame shifting of the situation for Jewish people in Germany. You may see it differently.
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Quote:More to the point, DT sees it differently.
Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
Just calling it as I see it. DT's responses are a continuaous minimisation and blame shifting of the situation for Jewish people in Germany. You may see it differently.
I just think a person's understanding of his own beliefs should trump someone else's interpretation of HIS OWN BELIEFS.
Imagine Bob says, "I believe A."
If you say, "No, Bob, I know your own beliefs better than you. You really believe B," I think that's quite presumptious and rude.
Now if you take issue with A, then debate WHY in your view, A=B. Instead of accusing him of B (which he never said), imagine for a moment that A = B is only an assumption on your part and is not necessarily true.
--Can't Take (my gorram) Sky
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Hello,
To play the devil's advocate for just a moment...
"I have no use for Vulcans. They are unemotional and cold. They are also ugly, with their pointy ears."
'Am I racist? Not at all. Does my comment sound racist? It's not, and neither am I, and I find your insinuation rude. I know what my position is better than you do. Just because you assume that me not liking Vulcans means I am racist doesn't make it true.'
I have been accused of things on this forum at which I took great umbrage. Things vile and disgusting to me. People made assumptions about me which I was forced to correct. I stood up for myself and did so to the best of my ability, and will probably have to do so again someday.
I also took stock of my language, demeanor, and thought processes. I took long hard looks.
If someone thinks something about you after speaking with you, what they think may not be true. However, what is true is that something happened to give them the wrong impression. They might be off their rocker. Or you might be giving off the wrong signals.
The resultant self-examination may have merit. "Why do people think X of me?"
--Anthony
Assured by friends that the signal-to-noise ratio has improved on this forum, I have disabled web filtering.
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Quote:Agreed.
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
They might be off their rocker. Or you might be giving off the wrong signals.
The resultant self-examination may have merit. "Why do people think X of me?"
But some people are just off their rockers.
In this case, what I see is no allowance for dissent. It is either you subscribe fully to the conventional view, or you belong to the wacko extremist camp. No middle ground, no alternative perspective is allowed.
Here, if you look at Nazi Germany in any way other than they are Demon Spawns from Hell, you belong in the Holocaust Denial camp. Did DT deny that the Holocaust took place? No. Did he say, "Aw shucks, Jews didn't suffer that much, or the numbers of deaths were exaggerated?" No. But out comes the accusations of "minimizing" and "excusing" and getting info from PN's holocaust denial buddies.
It's rude and hurtful. That's all I'm sayin'. If I may borrow Magon's phrase, I'm calling it as I see it.
--Can't Take (my gorram) Sky
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Hello,
I agree we have people insisting on riding the seesaw when that's not the best game on the playground.
--Anthony
Assured by friends that the signal-to-noise ratio has improved on this forum, I have disabled web filtering.
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CTTS, I disagree with what some of what you said DT DIDN’T say.Quote:
I believe that by blaming the reason the Nazis did what they did on the things he did (our unwillingness to negotiate—which I believe we did try to do, blaming corporatists, etc, he WAS minimizing the Nazi regime.
You minimise the Holocaust, you don't believe in the Final Solution, you say that the Jewish Hollywood has overplayed the situation, you shift the blame of murder of the Jewish people onto nameless corporations, you minimise the increasing persecution of Jewish people under the Nazis from the time they came to power.
He called itQuote:
I think that’s inaccurate. Maybe a large portion of Germany was capable of reason, but they weren’t in charge. Their government was; and their government wasn’t open to reason.
a tragic failed state full of humans capable of reasonQuote:
I find that an amazing statement. While there are certain comparisons that hold, the differences were huge and that’s at the very least an oversimplification.
Right now I think the closest parallel to Nazi Germany is the United StatesQuote:
He makes flat statements like this as if they were fact; first, nobody can know, second, does he really think Hitler and his crew would have stopped murdering Jews, not beaten England, not annexed France, if we hadn’t helped defeat him? And how he thought there would have been fewer deaths if Japan had won the war defeats me.
Our war saved no one.... If Japan had one the war, fewer people would have died, and that's pretty much a guarantee.Quote:
The holocaust didn’t start before we went to war? That comes as a surprise to me.
fact that the solution we chose did not only not prevent the holocaust, it may have caused it.
There are so many things he stated as fact which I find highly questionable. As I haven’t “studied” WWII I won’t attempt to look up material which could authoritatively debate the issues he stated, but I think what he stated often as “fact” was actually his conclusions and his opinions. Saying his only option was to be “delusional” if he didn’t believe what he said was reality pretty much says it all.Quote:
was not only an incorrect assumption but an extrapolation of what I had written to become a complete generalization.
I try to pin evil on international corporations, and you insist on pinning it on socialist big government.
I also don’t seeQuote:
Arguments were made that attempting to negotiate with Nazi Germany wouldn’t have been feasible, and that it wasn’t America’s fault that WWII came about, among other things. If someone said DT was denying the Holocaust, I missed it; but he DID blame AMERICA for creating the holocaust. We DID debate his points; we questioned his conclusions and refuted a number of his arguments with our opinions. What you see as pure condemnation I see as an attempt to debate. What we got back was “I’m right.”, to the point where he answered my questioning with “I studied it”, no cites, no information from any other source than his opinions, just a flat denunciation of my questioning because he had studied the issue. I didn’t see any ground given anywhere along the line by DT.
It is either you subscribe fully to the conventional view, or you belong to the wacko extremist camp. No middle ground, no alternative perspective is allowed. Here, if you look at Nazi Germany in any way other than they are Demon Spawns from Hell, you belong in the Holocaust Denial camp.
Magons put up three links to people who DID negotiate with Nazi Germany, even made pacts to appease them. Germany broke all of those; ergo, wouldn’t it be logical that, looking at those results, America would have thought that attempts at negotiation weren’t viable? When you see someone negotiate, repeatedly, and it does no good, isn’t t going to lessen your desire to attempt negotiations/agreements with that person?
I believe you’re caught up in seeing things through one perspective, and seeing them as m
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Ever since Wuurld Staaaa shithop the internet has accelerated to beyond retarded
The phones thing may have been the death of the internets....and in more thread theme....Stupid people can't figure out how to internets
Yo Yo gibs some Bix Noods dat Raps n sheeeeiit
Live Speedy Boykins Speedofficiall Darren Watkins Jr
Gen-Z European youth worship the retarded, ugly and boring.
Popular streamer IShowSpeed got viciously mobbed by migrant youth in Norway. He says he won't come back.
https://x.com/stillgray/status/1808616853390119403
some other thing says its the Netherlands, he was with Dutch in Holland?
IShowSpeed flees from mob of fans in chaotic Amsterdam stream
https://www.dexerto.com/youtube/ishowspeed-flees-from-mob-of-fans-in-c
haotic-amsterdam-stream-2794516/
' Speed is far from the first streamer to get mobbed out in public. In fact, fellow streamer Kai Cenat inadvertently started a riot in New York City in 2023, causing him to have to pay a $55K fine.'
quote 'Poor guy'
https://x.com/ClownWorld_/status/1808525994233643156
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