Real World Event Discussions
Russia Invades Ukraine. Again
POSTED BY: captaincrunch
UPDATED: Sunday, September 6, 2026 21:09
VIEWED: 562266
PAGE 437 of 1104
Sunday, July 9, 2023 5:19 PM
Quote:Signym, you'd have a worthy argument if both of the following were true:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
but... but... but... biden* called them a 'war crime', didn't he?
unlike russian cluster munitions which self-defuse in 24 hours, USA cluster munitions persist for a long time, littering the landscape and making normal civilian life dangerous.
sigh.
and weren't we the ones whinging about radioactive fallout, even as britain was providing depleted uranium shells?
NEVER expect the moral high ground from our fearless leaders and allies. it's all about expediency.
1) Russia was not using cluster munitions in Ukraine
2) Ukraine would be firing its cluster munitions onto Russian territory.
Ukraine will receive obsolete US cluster munitions that will be used within Ukraine. If Ukrainians fire those, then the consequences on Ukrainian children completely lie with Ukraine, not with Biden. And if Ukraine spreads depleted uranium around Ukraine, the consequences completely lie with Ukraine, not with the UK supplying the depleted uranium.
The United States announced a new military aid package for Ukraine that includes cluster munitions on July 7. The $800 million aid package includes dual-purpose improved conventional munitions (DPICMs), and more ammunition for Patriot air defense systems and HIMARS MLRS systems.[7] US Under Secretary of Defense for Policy Colin Kahl stated that the US is providing cluster munitions to Ukraine due to the “urgency of the moment” to equip Ukrainian forces with artillery ammunition to use against Russian military targets during the counteroffensive.
https://www.understandingwar.org/backgrounder/russian-offensive-assess
ment-july-8-2023
The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at
https://www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Sunday, July 9, 2023 5:22 PM
Quote:You failed to include this reason:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
yanno, the one good thing about SECOND is that i don't have to diligently scan the M$M to see what bullshit they're spewing on any particular day. all i need to do is come here to get the propaganda du jour.
. . .
did i miss any?
recycled ad nauseum.
The Russians murdered 62 million Russians. The Russians murdered 4 million Ukrainians. The Russians invaded Ukraine. The Ukrainians feel strongly that Russians should die for that. In the meantime, for absolutely selfish reasons the US will spend a few billion dollars per month to supply ammo to Ukraine because, besides Russians being murderers, the Russians also have threatened for 70 years to invade the rest of Europe and nuke the USA and would have made those threats an actuality if the USA had not spent more than ten trillion dollars building nukes to deter the Russians from their often stated goals.
The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at
https://www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Monday, July 10, 2023 11:22 AM
Quote:Aside from being counterfactual, that's irrational.
originally posted by SIGNYM:
yanno, the one good thing about SECOND is that i don't have to diligently scan the M$M to see what bullshit they're spewing on any particular day. all i need to do is come here to get the propaganda du jour.
russia is a gas station masquerading as a country
russia is running out of weapons
russians are slavering hordes of cannibalistic mass murderers
russia doesn't know how to fight wars
russia's economy is in tatters, tatters, i tell you!
NATO is more united than ever
russia is isolated from the 'world' economy
putin is an iron-fisted tyrant
russia needs to be 'decolonized' (i.e broken up) and absorbed
russia is committing war crimes in ukraine
russia is suffering massive casulties
ukraine is winning! endlessly winning!
russia blew up nordstream
russia blew up the nova kakhova dam
russia is going to blow up ZNPP
putin's government is cracking
this war is all about freedom and democracy
saint zelenskiy is a freedom fighter
ukraine just needs more weapons and more money!
. . .
did i miss any?
recycled ad nauseum.
SECOND: You failed to include this reason:
The Russians murdered 62 million Russians.
counterfactual: go to any mainstream source and look up 'russian deaths under stalin' i know i did. no source that i could find had anywhere nea that number.
and where's the logic in 'russian killed 'x' number of russians so we should kill more'?
being counterfactual and irrational makes it a good propagnada point!
Quote:numbers are disputed, but true
The Russians murdered 4 million Ukrainians.
Quote:true.
The Russians invaded Ukraine.
Quote:not true. many ukrainians are fighting alongside russians
The Ukrainians feel strongly that Russians should die for that.
Quote:not true.
In the meantime, for absolutely selfish reasons the US will spend a few billion dollars per month to supply ammo to Ukraine because, besides Russians being murderers, the Russians also have threatened for 70 years to invade the rest of Europe and nuke the USA
since it doesn't matter to the west - or SECOND- whether propaganda points are true or not, i suppose they ALL make useable propaganda!
well, now i can add to that list of propaganda and not have to bother reading any more of SECOND'S posts.
just wake me up, SECOND, if you come across a new one.
-----------
"It may be dangerous to be America's enemy, but to be America's friend is fatal." - Henry Kissinger
Loving America is like loving an addicted spouse - SIGNYM
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Monday, July 10, 2023 4:29 PM
Quote:Russia killed 62 million of its own citizens.
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
just wake me up, SECOND, if you come across a new one.
From the book Lethal Politics: Soviet Genocide and Mass Murder since 1917 by R. J. Rummel
Download the free book from http://libgen.is/search.php?req=R.+J.+Rummel
https://www.amazon.com/Lethal-Politics-Soviet-Genocide-Murder-ebook/dp
/B073RQ94KF/
1 61,911,000 Victims: Utopianism Empowered, 1917-1987
2 3,284,000 Victims: The Civil War Period, 1917-1922
3 2,200,000 Victims: The NEP Period 1923-1928
4 11,440,000 Victims: The Collectivization Period, 1929-1935
5 4,345,000 Victims: The Great Terror Period 1936-1938
6 5,104,000 Victims: Pre-World War II Period 1939-June 1941
7 13,053,000 Victims: World War II Period, June 1941-1945
8 15,613,000 Victims: Postwar and Stalin’s Twilight Period, 1945-1953
9 6,872,000 Victims: Post-Stalin Period, 1954-1987
Lethal Politics: Soviet Genocide and Mass Murder since 1917 by R. J. Rummel
Download the free book from http://libgen.is/search.php?req=R.+J.+Rummel
https://www.amazon.com/Lethal-Politics-Soviet-Genocide-Murder-ebook/dp
/B073RQ94KF/
The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at
https://www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Monday, July 10, 2023 4:31 PM
Russian sources accused Ukrainian forces of targeting the Kerch Strait Bridge on July 9. Crimean Occupation Head Sergei Aksyonov claimed that Russian air defense systems shot down a cruise missile in the Kerch area, and Crimean Occupation Ministry of Transport reportedly temporarily stopped traffic over the bridge resulting in a 3.5km to 6km traffic jam.[72] Russian milbloggers shared footage of Russian air defense systems activating but it is unclear what weapon these systems shot down.[73] A Kremlin-affiliated milblogger doubted Aksyonov’s claim about Russian forces shooting down a cruise missile, noting that Ukrainian aircraft would need to launch a missile from a dangerously close position near the frontline.[74]
https://www.understandingwar.org/backgrounder/russian-offensive-campai
gn-assessment-july-9-2023
The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at
https://www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Monday, July 10, 2023 5:49 PM
you have a habit of quoting psychos, SECOND. publication doesn't mean it's true, or credible. just look at how many bibles are published. i looked up 'deaths under stalin' specifically, and i looked at more than one source. exclude wartime deaths (wwii wasn't started by stalin) in any tally.
Quote:
... a research paper by Georgian historian Roy Aleksandrovich Medvedev published in the weekly tabloid Argumenti i Fakti estimated that the death toll directly attributable to Stalin’s rule amounted to some 20 million lives ...
In his book, “Unnatural Deaths in the U.S.S.R.: 1928-1954,” I.G. Dyadkin estimated that the USSR suffered 56 to 62 million "unnatural deaths" during that period, with 34 to 49 million directly linked to Stalin [i.e probably excluding wwii] ...British historian Norman Davies counted 50 million killed between 1924-53 [excluding wwii?]... Alexander Nikolaevich Yakovlev, a Soviet politician and historian, estimated 35 million deaths [excluding wwii?] ...
https://www.ibtimes.com/how-many-people-did-joseph-stalin-kill-1111789
-----------
"It may be dangerous to be America's enemy, but to be America's friend is fatal." - Henry Kissinger
Loving America is like loving an addicted spouse - SIGNYM
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Monday, July 10, 2023 8:00 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
yanno, the one good thing about SECOND is that i don't have to diligently scan the M$M to see what bullshit they're spewing on any particular day. all i need to do is come here to get the propaganda du jour.
russia is a gas station masquerading as a country
russia is running out of weapons
russians are slavering hordes of cannibalistic mass murderers
russia doesn't know how to fight wars
russia's economy is in tatters, tatters, i tell you!
NATO is more united than ever
russia is isolated from the 'world' economy
putin is an iron-fisted tyrant
russia needs to be 'decolonized' (i.e broken up) and absorbed
russia is committing war crimes in ukraine
russia is suffering massive casulties
ukraine is winning! endlessly winning!
russia blew up nordstream
russia blew up the nova kakhova dam
russia is going to blow up ZNPP
putin's government is cracking
this war is all about freedom and democracy
saint zelenskiy is a freedom fighter
ukraine just needs more weapons and more money!
did i miss any?
When it comes to Russia there is always more that can be negatively said. Still, Second did a good job exposing much of what is current.
T
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Monday, July 10, 2023 8:11 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by second:Quote:Russia killed 62 million of its own citizens.
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
just wake me up, SECOND, if you come across a new one.
From the book Lethal Politics: Soviet Genocide and Mass Murder since 1917 by R. J. Rummel
Download the free book from http://libgen.is/search.php?req=R.+J.+Rummel
https://www.amazon.com/Lethal-Politics-Soviet-Genocide-Murder-ebook/dp
/B073RQ94KF/
1 61,911,000 Victims: Utopianism Empowered, 1917-1987
2 3,284,000 Victims: The Civil War Period, 1917-1922
3 2,200,000 Victims: The NEP Period 1923-1928
4 11,440,000 Victims: The Collectivization Period, 1929-1935
5 4,345,000 Victims: The Great Terror Period 1936-1938
6 5,104,000 Victims: Pre-World War II Period 1939-June 1941
7 13,053,000 Victims: World War II Period, June 1941-1945
8 15,613,000 Victims: Postwar and Stalin’s Twilight Period, 1945-1953
9 6,872,000 Victims: Post-Stalin Period, 1954-1987
Lethal Politics: Soviet Genocide and Mass Murder since 1917 by R. J. Rummel
Download the free book from http://libgen.is/search.php?req=R.+J.+Rummel
https://www.amazon.com/Lethal-Politics-Soviet-Genocide-Murder-ebook/dp
/B073RQ94KF/
https://www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly
Looks like sig agrees with you 2. And it's a damning account of Russia. History shows Russia is and has always been, amongst the worst of the worst. The most corrupt, bad, evil, and morally ill.
T
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Tuesday, July 11, 2023 12:08 AM
Quote:6,872,000 Victims: Post-Stalin Period, 1954-1987
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
you have a habit of quoting . . .
With Stalin’s death, the terror was gradually alleviated, though not really ended until the 1980s under Gorbachev. Beria, Stalin’s chief enforcer and head of the KGB, was executed; many other lesser lights were purged.1
The “crimes” of the Stalin years, particularly the Great Terror (in which, be it remembered, top party members were executed) were secretly revealed by Khrushchev. As mentioned in the previous chapter, the camp population was gradually reduced and the camp regime improved in the post-Stalin 1950s. However, the death camps at Kolyma still continued into the early 1960s, when they were also subject to reform, and perhaps largely closed by the middle 1960s.2
The overall camp deathrate also was gradually reduced.3 Commissions were sent to all camps to review sentences with the authority to release prisoners. Amnesties were declared. And the average citizen gradually became more secure in what he could say and do.
But all this was relative. Freedom of thought and expression, security from arbitrary arrest and imprisonment, the right to a fair trial, are not yet guaranteed to the Soviet citizen, even under Gorbachev. For example, in April 1989 the Soviet Presidium issued a decree making it illegal to insult or discredit the government.4 Until recently, citizens who spoke out or demonstrated against the party could yet end up in labor camps, possibly to die from any of a number of causes with which the reader of Solzhenitsyn has become familiar,5 not the least of which is being beaten or confined in a punishment cell. Even in reference to the late 1960s, Solzhenitsyn wrote that camps differed from Stalin’s not in regime, but in composition—there were no longer many millions of those sentenced for political reasons, or for no reason at all.6 In fact, numerous camp inmates had written Solzhenitsyn to point out that their conditions in the middle 1960s were just as bad as under Stalin.7
Moreover, while improved, the diet still barely sustained life, especially in strict regime camps. As late as 1977, a prisoner got 2,600 calories, 2,100 on a punishment diet, and 1,300 in the strict-punishment cells. Ignoring the diet’s deficiency in vitamins and fats, in calories alone it was far below the international standard of 3,100 to 3,900 calories for a man working a very active, eight-hour day.8
In addition, something new was added for the especially important political prisoners. They often were interned in psychiatric hospitals for the insane, where they were kept under pain-inducing or mind-numbing drugs.9
As late as 1982, the American CIA claimed that there were at least 4,000,000 prisoners, including 10,000 prisoners involved in forced labor.10 But these numbers may be on the low side. In the early 1980s, a former senior member of the Supreme Soviet who was in camp for bribery calculated that Soviet prisons and camps held about 5,000,000, with an additional 2,000,000 in investigative prisons waiting for trial or review of their sentences, and another 6,000,000 not in camps or prisons but doing mild forms of forced labor.11
The 1983-87 camp population was probably 4,000,000, even possibly as high as 5,000,000, inmates. The number of political prisoners can only be guessed but was likely in five figures.12 Also, many alleged criminals were truly political prisoners (an anti-Soviet nuclear arms demonstrator may have been sentenced to five years for “hooliganism,” a person caught trying to flee the Soviet Union over border barricades may have gotten ten years for treason).
For 1987 or early 1988, the CIA estimated that there still were 4,000,000 prisoners. Yuri Orlov, the former head of the Helsinki Monitoring Group, claimed that there were 5,000,000. Moreover, there were still claims that the courts had a quota to fill for forced labor.13 And there is still a duty to work. Those not doing socially useful work, which is work legally contracted by the government o
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Tuesday, July 11, 2023 12:27 AM
Quote:To "waste" means to kill. Russians have wasted Russian lives by the tens of millions. The Ukrainians are aware that Russians are wasteful. The Ukrainians fight the Russians because they know their lives will be wasted if Russians control them.
Originally posted by THG:
Looks like sig agrees with you 2. And it's a damning account of Russia. History shows Russia is and has always been, amongst the worst of the worst. The most corrupt, bad, evil, and morally ill.
T
The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at
https://www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME