The Battle for Iraq - Ethnic Cleansing part deux
POSTED BY: rue
UPDATED: Wednesday, January 12, 2005 14:42
VIEWED: 6194
PAGE 4 of 5
I apologise for calling you an inbred arrogant ass.
I'm not sure I've changed my mind about that - but we're not going to agree about this: so if you'll agree to just drop this I will as well.
Fair?
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Oh yeah, Geezer- you point to some specific cases, you've totalled up- what- 250 dead in your citations? BTW- show citations for those "hundreds of Iraqis taken prisoner and executed en masse". I have been away on vaction, perhaps you have news I don't. But you haven't been able to counter the fact that we pile 'em higher and deeper: 15,000+ and counting.
BTW- "MY HEROES"? Geezer, you're seriously putting words in my mouth again. Just because I'm unhappy with our performance doesn't mean I'm "for" the other guy.
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Wow. Go away for a few days and look what happens. I'll probably not get time to read this and enter into ongoing debate. Just presume I won't be back any time soon.
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Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Oh yeah, Geezer- you point to some specific cases, you've totalled up- what- 250 dead in your citations?
Just a few, off the top of my head and IBC.
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BTW- show citations for those "hundreds of Iraqis taken prisoner and executed en masse". I have been away on vaction, perhaps you have news I don't.
Just another sample, from a few minutes of Googling.
...21 More Murder Victims Found In Iraq
30,000 Terrorists May Be Working In Iraq
BAGHDAD, Iraq -- Officials said the bodies of three Jordanian truck drivers are the latest civilians to be found executed by Iraqi militants.
An Associated Press photographer at the scene in Ramadi said a note on one of the bodies threatens, “This is the fate of anyone who cooperates with the Americans."
The truckers had each been shot in the head.
Earlier Thursday, Iraqi police announced that they found the bodies of 18 men and boys in a field near the city of Mosul. They were killed last month.
Police said insurgents executed the victims last month, after the victims sought work at a U.S. base. They were between the ages of 14 and 20. Police said insurgents stopped two mini-buses that were taking the Iraqis from Baghdad to their jobs at a U.S. base in Mosul. Police said rebels bound the victims' hands and shot each in the head...
http://www.news4jax.com/news/4054168/detail.html
...Al-Qaida video shows five Iraqi police executed
By Associated Press
Published January 2, 2005
BAGHDAD, Iraq - Al-Qaida's arm in Iraq released a video Saturday showing its militants lining up five captured Iraqi security officers and executing them in the street, the latest move in a campaign to intimidate Iraqis and target those who collaborate with U.S.-led forces...
http://www.sptimes.com/2005/01/02/Worldandnation/Al_Qaida_video_shows_
.shtml
...Army recruits 'executed'
24/10/2004 14:41 Baquba - More than 40 unarmed Iraqi army recruits were gunned down execution-style in a remote area of eastern Iraq, officials said on Sunday, while a US diplomat was killed in a mortar attack on a military base in Baghdad.
The ambush that left a total of 48 dead followed twin suicide car bombings against police and the national guard on Saturday and further undermined efforts by the US-backed government to restore order ahead of elections planned for January...
http://www.news24.com/News24/World/Iraq/0,,2-10-1460_1609990,00.html
...9 Iraqi Soldiers Executed in Mosul
Sunday, November 21, 2004
BAGHDAD, Iraq — The bodies of nine Iraqi soldiers, all shot execution-style, were discovered in the northern city of Mosul (search) on Saturday, the U.S. military said.
The discovery came on top of four beheaded bodies that the U.S. military reported on Saturday that troops had found several days earlier. Those four bodies were still being identified...
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,139170,00.html
...11 Iraqi troops executed, video shows
Last Updated Thu, 28 Oct 2004 11:46:43 EDT
CBC News
BAGHDAD - An Iraqi extremist group has posted a video on its website showing the execution of 11 Iraqi troops who'd been taken hostage near Baghdad.
"After investigating with them and [hearing] their confessions, it turned out this group was responsible for guarding the Crusader American troops in Radwaniya area and what's around it in southern Baghdad," the Ansar al-Sunnah-Army said in a statement posted on the website on Thursday.
A video link on the site shows the National Guardsmen, some squatting with their hands tied behind their backs, reading their names, just before one is beheaded and the others shot...
http://www.cbc.ca/story/world/national/2004/10/28/iraq041028.html
Quote:
But you haven't been able to counter the fact that we pile 'em higher and deeper: 15,000+ and counting.
Not much point, since you'd disagree with me anyway.
Quote:
BTW- "MY HEROES"? Geezer, you're seriously putting words in my mouth again. Just because I'm unhappy with our performance doesn't meaNOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Shooting a wounded man point-blank is "good tactics"
Coralling all men between the ages of 15-55 in a city about to be attacked is "good tactics"
Invading a country and killing 15,000+ civilians is an honest mistake.
Setting up a detention system that encourages torture deserves promotion.
Turning over Iraqi national assets (water, power, etc.) to outside bidders and fucking up the Iraq income and asset accounting will make Iraq economically more sound.
You know, you're absolutely right Geezer! How could I have thought otherwise??? 
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Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Shooting a wounded man point-blank is "good tactics"
In a combat environment where similar "wounded" men have turned out to be wired with explosives? Yes. Somewhat different from shooting bound prisoners in the back of the head.
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Coralling all men between the ages of 15-55 in a city about to be attacked is "good tactics".
After warning them for months to go to safety, and only after the attack has started? Yes. Compare and contrast with 18 Shi'a youths looking for work, who were executed, or children killed by a car bomb because they were too close to restored infrastructure.
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Invading a country and killing 15,000+ civilians is an honest mistake.
IBC (source of the 15,000 figure?) considers every civilian casualty our fault. If you examine them, even the big numbers during the invasion, there's often no way to distinguish who killed them. As an aside, how many French civilians do you think the Allies killed during the liberation of Europe during WWII?
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Setting up a detention system that encourages torture deserves promotion.
Tell me again how many prisoners we've beheaded? Haven't seen the tapes yet.
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Turning over Iraqi national assets (water, power, etc.) to outside bidders and fucking up the Iraq income and asset accounting will make Iraq economically more sound.
Give me a cite of this actually happening, not just wild-ass interpretations of CPA rules.
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You know, you're absolutely right Geezer! How could I have thought otherwise???
Glad you finally figured that out.
"Keep the Shiny side up"
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Quote:
In a combat environment where similar "wounded" men have turned out to be wired with explosives? Yes. Somewhat different from shooting bound prisoners in the back of the head.
Oh yes, I agree. Shooting wounded men is an effective way of disabling boobytraps, MUCH more effective than actually checking them. If I saw wounded people that had been checked by my comrades the day before or who were in their own homes eating dinner, I probably would assume they were boobytrapped too. In fact, ANY wounded person COULD be boody-trapped. Absolutely Geezer, MUCH safer to assume that ALL wounded are booby trapped. I agree that we really should just shoot them.
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Tell me again how many prisoners we've beheaded? Haven't seen the tapes yet.
Yes, I know... beheading is just soo... messy. it's much more humane to beat them to death or suffocate them in sleeping bags. WHAT were those barbarians thinking? Beheading is just so.... barbaric. As far as our own tapes are concerned- I know they're still classified. I'm eagerly awaiting their release so that we can demonstrate to the world how humane we are.
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Give me a cite of this actually happening, not just wild-ass interpretations of CPA rules.
www.americanfreepress.net/html/billions_swiped.html
Here is the cite. But I KNOW that it's just baseless accusation. Just because we lost track of billions of dollars of Iraqi revenues doesn't mean that they're REALLY lost, I'm sure we've just misplaced them, and will replace them right away!
As far as Iraqi assets, I'm sure that that the Iraqi provisional government and the investors were operating on a complete misunderstanding. Likely, the USA will restore Iraqi national assets and compensate the disappointed investors as soon as this mistake is cleared up.
www.canadiandimesion.mb.ca/extra/d1000tg.htm
I'm confident that the United States has Iraq's interests in mind, as well as the US taxpayers' and that we will institute financial transparency and autonomy right away.
But, I am still waiting for that cite of "hundreds" of Iraqis imprisoned and killed en masse. I've already told all my friends about it... I need the evidence to prove to them how barbaric the insurgents are. Please don't disappoint me!
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Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Actually, if the US stopped ALL of its aid, the only countries that would realy hurt would be Israel and Egypt. Most US governmental "aid" is either military or a roundabout way of funneling money into corporations that have bent Congressional ears. More than likely the net effect of stopping all US governmental aid would be beneficial to the average world citizen. Of course, US citizens could continue to donate to the various NGOs of their choice.
Yeah..the aid to Africa is nothing. If we pulled that it wouldn't affect anyone but Israel and Egypt. Thats one example. My problem with this whole thread and my sarcastic (Yes it was sarcastic..sorry Weasy..Obviously you are too thin skinned and blinded by your own sense of PC save the world bullshit to see sarcasm for what it is) response is thus..
All this goddamned thread does is demonize our troops. They're the ones over there. They are the ones following orders and yes war is goddamn ugly, particularly when one side doesn't follow ANY rules of war. However I will not stand by and let anyone criticize our boys and girls in the coalition period. If you don't like our politics..thats fine. I find alot of fault in them as well. However if you come in here and criticize our boys and girls..expect to get an eyefull.
Frankly..I posted some pics of the good stuff our troops are doing over there. The only person who has had an anti-iraq war opinion that posted about that was Signym, (which in my opinion says alot about his character). These are things you don't read or hear about on the goddamn news. You chastise me for being an inbred un-informed ass..when the fact is that I am very well informed, I'm not inbred and I can be an ass. I draw my opinions from what I read and see from all sides of the spectrum, not from a left leaning nutjob boohoo website or a goddamn republican hack site. I know what fear is..though I have never fought in military combat. I know what loss is and I know what it's like to sit here in the states and worry my ass off for my friends over there. THEY ARE FOLKS WHO ARE NOT EVIL GENOCIDAL ANIMALS!!!!
As for aid.. no I don't think we should be "Thanked" per se for our aid..but goddamn it, we shouldn't have to hear every night that the United States isn't giving enough..that we are a "Stingy" country..and the last thing I want to see is the goddamn UN having anything to do with the distribution of funds donated. They are the most impotent corrupt organization on the face of the planet period. Hell we still don't know how many died over there..for all we know the numbers are inflated or are underestimated. Here we are as a world pouring Billions of dollars into 3 or 4 3rd world countries without so much as an inkling as to what really is going on over there. Hell those countries and the aid agencies still don't know who's in charge...who's getting what. But hey ya know..I'm a goddamn stingy American who loves his country and loves his friends and family. They come first before anybody else.
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If I can turn my sarcasm off for a minute... it's hard, but I'll try...
When I read that some units train to "dead check" with a bullet, I worry more for our troops than for Iraqis. War is difficult enough without the added trauma of being a barbarian. It does incredible damage to the morals and psyche of our enlisted, who live with... and come home with... all bad that they feel they have done, as well as the good.
Which is why I'm livid about this war. We're shredding our ideals and our young for either (a) a lie or (b) a f*ckup that stretches the imagination, depending on how you look at it. And NOBODY has taken responsibility for it. Cheney, Rice, Rumsfeld, Perle, Feith, Libby, Abrams, Bolton, Gonzales... they're still in place, still collecting the old government paycheck, still f*cking up or committing treason depending on how you see it. Still sending in troops without enough armor or support, still charging the wounded for long-distance phone calls, still reducing pay.... Oh yeah, we want the leaders of the insurgency to pay for their crimes. HANG 'EM HIGH I SAY! But what about our fearless leaders? Don't they deserve at least a pink slip? Our enlisted deserve a LOT better than being sent into a shredder for no good reason, and then being hung out to dry.
EDITED to add link re "DEAD-CHECK"
www.villagevoice.com/news/0447,wright,58644,1.html
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Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
If I can turn my sarcasm off for a minute... it's hard, but I'll try...
When I read that some units train to "dead check" with a bullet, I worry more for our troops than for Iraqis. War is difficult enough without the added trauma of being a barbarian. It does incredible damage to the morals and psyche of our enlisted, who live with... and come home with... all bad that they feel they have done, as well as the good.
Which is why I'm livid about this war. We're shredding our ideals and our young for either (a) a lie or (b) a f*ckup that stretches the imagination, depending on how you look at it. And NOBODY has taken responsibility for it. Cheney, Rice, Rumsfeld, Perle, Feith, Libby, Abrams, Bolton, Gonzales... they're still in place, still collecting the old government paycheck, still f*cking up or committing treason depending on how you see it. Still sending in troops without enough armor or support, still charging the wounded for long-distance phone calls, still reducing pay.... Oh yeah, we want the leaders of the insurgency to pay for their crimes. HANG 'EM HIGH I SAY! But what about our fearless leaders? Don't they deserve at least a pink slip? Our enlisted deserve a LOT better than being sent into a shredder for no good reason, and then being hung out to dry.
I agree with you for the most part. Rumsfeld should have been fired after the WMD debaucle and the insufficent war plan. However..our troops shouldn't be the ones demonized. If Anyone should be demonized it should be the leaders of our goddamned government..both Dems and Repubs alike..they are all responsible for the situation we created and the situation we are in. Terrorism and Insurgency weren't fabricated in 5 years..they were created over decades. As for the "Dead Check", it is a known ploy used by the "Terrorists" to play dead and then shoot the hell out of our folks when they get close. There is trauma that occurs because of these policies to our kids..but theres also trauma from watching your best friend die to a supposed corpse's bullet. War is nasty shit..all I care about is that our folks get the credit they are due and aren't demonized for it. Not every policy is 100% sound, but some are greater necessary evils of war then others, and our boys and girls aren't just slinging bullets and bombs over in Iraq. ALOT of good is being done that is almost never mentioned.
I personally don't see the battle for Iraq as a method of ethnic cleansing. Its a battle to finish off the old regime and bring about a new Iraqi government. Ultimately it is up to the Iraqi people (of whom a LARGE majority want peace and a new democratic government) to bring this to fruition. It's not up to the US. You can't bring a horse to water and make him drink..he needs to want to do it himself.
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