The Battle for Iraq - Ethnic Cleansing part deux

POSTED BY: rue
UPDATED: Wednesday, January 12, 2005 14:42
VIEWED: 6194
PAGE 3 of 5

FIRST PAGE PREV PAGE 1 2 3 4 5 NEXT PAGE LAST PAGE

WEASY

Saturday, January 8, 2005 8:33 PM

Connorflynn

Quote:
No more aid to anyone

I can't believe you even wrote that.
America is and will probably always remain the richest country in the world - to deny aid is murder by neglect.

So far as terrorism goes have one of you people asked *why* there is terrorism? Why there is war? Why people rebel? It's because they're poor or starving and they go through all the right channels - they plead to charities and the US and everbody ignores them until they blow up some people or take some hostages - and even then governments won't 'negotiate' with terrorists, so nobody ever bother finds out why they fuckin' did it in the first place.

Do you really think it's about Jihad? It's not. It's because we have so much more than them, and we promised them, promised them schools and hospitals and aid and we never gave it to them. No wonder they're pissed off.

I don't condone what terrorists do - it's wrong, there can't be any doubt about that - but barging in and demanding they change their ways without finding out what the problem was isn't *ever* going to work.

That's why we've fought this Iraq war four times already and we'll do it again.

Quote:
Americans are evil. Our government is evil, our military is evil...

Oh, we know you're not evil - you're just the most ill-informed nation anywhere. You don't have one single 'straight' news network. I know this for a fact, over here in the UK when I was waiting to find out who won the US election I looked at all the American news network sites and then I looked at the BBC's. The BBC was the only site that waited until officials had called the result for each state before they called it on their site. Not one of the American ones waited for the actual result.

Don't you see? The governments tells your reporters what to say and they say it and you *believe it* not one country I have ever been to or lived in does that - and screw that, what about actual truth and honesty?

What about Bush saying that Saddam was responsible for 9/11 and had links to Al'Qaida - a blatant lie - Saddam and Osama are different types of extremist Muslim - they would never ever have anything to do with each other - but he said it and 60% of the population got over their half-hearted doubts baout the war and said oh okay, we'll get rid of him then, not because he was an evil dictator that killed anyone who disagreed with him (well that argument wouldn't make sense - that's we went in to do last time and we just put him back in power after a wrist slap!)

An interesting point - donations from US and UK public (not governments) towards Tsunami relief are equal. The US has a population six times the size as the UK... your donation should logically speaking be six times as high. Shame your so eager to spend money on defense and not on dying civilians.

America could be great, it is now the World's only superstate and it should be amazing. But it's not. You can make it better or you can curl up at home and pretend the real world isn't out there. The rest of us don't have that luxury - we live too close.

But then maybe what y'all lack is a conscience - not brains.

I apologise for my harshness, but I am so utterly offended by your arrogant ignorance on this matter that I have no qualms about posting this. If you want to have an opinion maybe you should know something about what you're talking about.

GEEZER

Saturday, January 8, 2005 9:17 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:

And as far as the "good tactics" is concerned, let me ask you: Are the insurgents then following "bad tactics"? If so, how? In other words, how do we differentitate what "we" do from what "they" do on that basis?

For the umpty-umpth time...

The Iraqi insurgents are following classical insurgency doctrine, which goes back at least to the Spanish guerrillas of the Napoleonic wars. They are doing it quite well. Unfortunately for everyone else, their doctrine calls for implicitly ignoring, in fact purposefully violating, all of the commonly accepted rules of war which you and Rue go on about so much.

The Coalition, on the other hand, must walk the thin line between:
(A) complete, letter-of-the-law, obedience to several, sometimes contradictory protocols and agreements, and have their troops slaughtered by folks who don't play by any of those rules. Or,
(B) the closest adherence possible to those rules, taking into account the realities of the situation.
Coalition troops have undoubtedly been killed because we try to play by the rules as much as possible.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

SIGNYM

Sunday, January 9, 2005 5:46 AM

Geezer, I don't believe I've "gone on about" the rules of war. I think you've conflated us.

From what I see of the insurgents, they generally target foreign troops, Iraqi security, US contractors, and Iraqi employees and appointees of the US occupation. Yes, there are exceptions. Some of them may be due to the relatively small number of foreign elements w/in the insurgency, some of them may be due to lack of training or emotions running away, just as happens with US troops. But, I don't see them en masse targeting women or children or in general being responsible for an inordinate number of civilian deaths. What is it that "they" do that you find so much worse than what WE do?

And then you have to ask- why are we in Iraq? I mean, I know why the INSURGENTS are in Iraq- they live there, for chrissake- but why are WE there?

Quote:
But let's consider what happens in actual atrocity situations. American soldiers are charged by their own service with the crimes, and some go to jail when convicted.

Oh yeah, let's consider what happens to people who narrowly define torture as organ failure or death. THEY get nominated as Attorney General!

Damn, we're good!

SIGNYM

Sunday, January 9, 2005 6:48 AM

Finn, they picked the last three years to make comparable stats- apples to apples you know. DUH.

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Sunday, January 9, 2005 3:35 PM

Nonetheless, it doesn't make us the number one killer. DUH.

CONNORFLYNN

Sunday, January 9, 2005 3:58 PM

Well..I guess since they are only killing "Generally" foreign troops, Iraqi security, US contractors, and Iraqi employees and appointees of the US occupation (We'll disregard the fact that all these folks are humans and have some worth) with a "Few" exceptions (We'll disregard all the civilian deaths from car and roadside and mortar bombs and the executions of people looking for work etc..etc..), I guess it makes it OK that the "Insurgents" aren't a party to the Geneva Conventions, and also don't follow the traditional rules of war.

My hope is that the Iraqi's finally decide to take control of their country and their own lives and destiny.

CONNORFLYNN

Sunday, January 9, 2005 4:02 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Weasy:
Connorflynn
Quote:
No more aid to anyone

I can't believe you even wrote that.
America is and will probably always remain the richest country in the world - to deny aid is murder by neglect.

So far as terrorism goes have one of you people asked *why* there is terrorism? Why there is war? Why people rebel? It's because they're poor or starving and they go through all the right channels - they plead to charities and the US and everbody ignores them until they blow up some people or take some hostages - and even then governments won't 'negotiate' with terrorists, so nobody ever bother finds out why they fuckin' did it in the first place.

Do you really think it's about Jihad? It's not. It's because we have so much more than them, and we promised them, promised them schools and hospitals and aid and we never gave it to them. No wonder they're pissed off.

I don't condone what terrorists do - it's wrong, there can't be any doubt about that - but barging in and demanding they change their ways without finding out what the problem was isn't *ever* going to work.

That's why we've fought this Iraq war four times already and we'll do it again.

Quote:
Americans are evil. Our government is evil, our military is evil...

Oh, we know you're not evil - you're just the most ill-informed nation anywhere. You don't have one single 'straight' news network. I know this for a fact, over here in the UK when I was waiting to find out who won the US election I looked at all the American news network sites and then I looked at the BBC's. The BBC was the only site that waited until officials had called the result for each state before they called it on their site. Not one of the American ones waited for the actual result.

Don't you see? The governments tells your reporters what to say and they say it and you *believe it* not one country I have ever been to or lived in does that - and screw that, what about actual truth and honesty?

What about Bush saying that Saddam was responsible for 9/11 and had links to Al'Qaida - a blatant lie - Saddam and Osama are different types of extremist Muslim - they would never ever have anything to do with each other - but he said it and 60% of the population got over their half-hearted doubts baout the war and said oh okay, we'll get rid of him then, not because he was an evil dictator that killed anyone who disagreed with him (well that argument wouldn't make sense - that's we went in to do last time and we just put him back in power after a wrist slap!)

An interesting point - donations from US and UK public (not governments) towards Tsunami relief are equal. The US has a population six times the size as the UK... your donation should logically speaking be six times as high. Shame your so eager to spend money on defense and not on dying civilians.

America could be great, it is now the World's only superstate and it should be amazing. But it's not. You can make it better or you can curl up at home and pretend the real world isn't out there. The rest of us don't have that luxury - we live too close.

But then maybe what y'all lack is a conscience - not brains.

I apologise for my harshness, but I am so utterly offended by your arrogant ignorance on this matter that I have no qualms about posting this. If you want to have an opinion maybe you should know something about what you're talking about.

Tough shit..deal with it. Give me your address and I'll send you a box of tissues. Frankly I could give a flying hooey whether I offend you or not. Again I say..the US should adopt a policy of 100% Non-Intervention. It's all thankless anyways and besides even when we give more then all the rest of the world annually..well we still aren't doing enough. Go screw yourself Weasy..really I mean that whole heartedly. I know I'm not donating another red cent to any UN agency. There are folks here at home who could do with a little of my help and would thank me for it rather then spitting it back in my face.

WEASY

Sunday, January 9, 2005 4:47 PM

Don't you get it?
Doing the right things isn't about being thanked for it.
Do you think that's why Martin Luthor King did what he did? or Ghandi? Or any of your presidents?

And I'm sorry if I don't think any of those 'supposedly important' deficencies in America mean anything - you want to help the people in your country what about redressing your totally imbalanced taxation policy that taxes the poor more heavily than the rich and the scandalous welfare to work programme.
But I get the feeling you don't really care about those either.

That's alright, no-one can make you. But if America keeps going the way it is the next time you need help on want to crusade forward on your pointless war on terror maybe you should remember this...
you're loosing your last chance with the rest of the world. We're really not gunna bother helping you anymore. I know you don't think you'll ever need us...
fine. we don't need arrogant inbred asses like you either.

GEEZER

Sunday, January 9, 2005 5:16 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Geezer, I don't believe I've "gone on about" the rules of war. I think you've conflated us.

From what I see of the insurgents, they generally target foreign troops, Iraqi security, US contractors, and Iraqi employees and appointees of the US occupation. Yes, there are exceptions. Some of them may be due to the relatively small number of foreign elements w/in the insurgency, some of them may be due to lack of training or emotions running away, just as happens with US troops. But, I don't see them en masse targeting women or children or in general being responsible for an inordinate number of civilian deaths. What is it that "they" do that you find so much worse than what WE do?

What strange world do you live in? Want to know what "they" do that is worse than what we do? Ask Margaret Hassam. Ask the 121 Shi'ite pilgrims killed by a suicide bomb in Karbala 03/02/2004, or the 67 in Baghdad the same day. The 53 at a funeral in Najif 12/19/2004. The 42, mostly children, at the opening of a sewer plant in Baghdad on 10/30/2004. Ask the hundreds of Iraqis taken prisoner by the insurgents and then executed en masse. Ask the ordinary Shi'a who are killed just because they are Shi'a. Ask the dead from the car bombs at the U.N. and Red Cross headquarters in Baghdad. Ask Nicholas Berg.

I'm hoping that you are just arguing here, and don't actually believe that the insurgents are just brave freedom fighters.

Quote:
And then you have to ask- why are we in Iraq? I mean, I know why the INSURGENTS are in Iraq- they live there, for chrissake- but why are WE there?

Right now, we're there so the Iraqis can hold an election in January. There is still no time machine available for us to take what has happened back, so we're dealing with the current situation. The insurgents are there to stop the election, and any possibility of a representative government. They hope to terrorize the population to the point at which they'd rather live under a Baathist dictatorship again than see their families and children killed.

Quote:
But let's consider what happens in actual atrocity situations. American soldiers are charged by their own service with the crimes, and some go to jail when convicted.

Quote:
Oh yeah, let's consider what happens to people who narrowly define torture as organ failure or death. THEY get nominated as Attorney General!

Damn, we're good!

Nah. We don't even videotape our beheadings and executions of women for world-wide distribution. Only your heros of the insurgency do that.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

SIGNYM

Sunday, January 9, 2005 5:58 PM

Actually, if the US stopped ALL of its aid, the only countries that would realy hurt would be Israel and Egypt. Most US governmental "aid" is either military or a roundabout way of funneling money into corporations that have bent Congressional ears. More than likely the net effect of stopping all US governmental aid would be beneficial to the average world citizen. Of course, US citizens could continue to donate to the various NGOs of their choice.

FIRST PAGE PREV PAGE 1 2 3 4 5 NEXT PAGE LAST PAGE