Joss' fascination with torture ?
POSTED BY: TheSomnambulist
UPDATED: Monday, December 27, 2004 17:15
VIEWED: 35028
PAGE 12 of 13
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Originally posted by teraph:
First thing:
Merry Christmas.
Teraph thanks - you to :)
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That said, I think many dramatic writers, and especially horror/dark drama writers would consider torture part of their "toolkit" of options. It, alongside sex crimes like rape, incest and sexual degradation (e.g., sex for drugs) are some of the darkest parts of human experience, and thus fodder for writers. (Cannibalism is dark too, but I don't see that very often on TV.)
How many TV serial killers have tortured or raped their victims? How many cop shows have used incest as a twist in a case? Shows like Law & Order: SVU and the Profiler were based entirely around horrible people doing horrible things.
Yeah I'd go along with that. I like the 'Toolkit" notion. That makes sense. That's maybe the way I'm reading it too. Or as a method for narrative advancement, rather than 'easy horror' .....
Mind you there's great humour derived from much of the torture scenes.....
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I mention Mutant Enemy, because a room full of writers comes up with these scripts, so being able to pin who suggested torture is hard. But I honestly don't Joss is obsessed with it. We may have to wait and see if it shows up in "Serenity" or not.
Yeah granted. I merely mentioned Joss because he is our way in to the Mutant Enemy collective.
I also don't think he's obssessed, and that is why I suggested 'fascinated' for the thread topic.
Cheers for the list - I wouldn't personally regarded many of those you've listed as acts of torture - but that's just a difference of opinion, and I couldn't tell you where the boundaries would be drawn where we to try and come to some common ground.
I guess much of what occurs on a TV show arises from what's happened previously....For the show to advance new ideas must be generated and therefore the natural show development may lead to these various horror landmarks. Torture being just one of them.
Maybe I've read too much into it. I dunno, but it was just something that struck while I had to endure another night of insomnia.
Still this has all made for a very interesting read. So thanks to all.
Cheers
TheSomnambulist
www.cirqus.com
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Gwen,
May I ask how old you are? From what I have found, people who didn't live through theier twenties yet (and possibly into their midthirties) had much more difficulty with the destructive relationship motif of season 6.
I thought the whole season was spot on and very very realistic.
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Originally posted by tlacook:
From what I have found, people who didn't live through theier twenties yet (and possibly into their midthirties) had much more difficulty with the destructive relationship motif of season 6.
I'm 55 and thought the motif was very poorly brought off and that the whole season was a big, Marti Noxon-induced mistake.
Now I wasn't horrified or squicked by it. I just thought that it was a conscious effort to show us people being depressed and thus mean to each other for a season, and that it didn't accomplish much by doing so.
Cardie
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And I thought it summed up the depression and destructive behavior of my twenties, quite well.
There was really nothing in that season that I could not relate to. It was much more relatable than the previous seasons by a landslide.
Lots of half naked JM did not hurt either.
Maybe a generational thing. *shrug*
And I adore Marti Noxon and can't wait for Point Pleasant to come out next month. I also never understood the problems people have with her. I think she is brilliant.
Once, again. Must be a generational thing.
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May I ask how old you are? From what I have found, people who didn't live through theier twenties yet (and possibly into their midthirties) had much more difficulty with the destructive relationship motif of season 6.
I thought the whole season was spot on and very very realistic.
Don't mind at all. I'm 16, 17 in a couple months or so.
Season 6 wasn't as disturbing or disgusting because of just the generel destructive behavior. I've gone through friends with destructive behavior, one commited suicide, so it takes alot to bother me . What was most bothersome to me is the fact that all the characters had been replaced by pod people.
Now, I know the characters aren't going to be the same, but lemme explain.
Season four, for me, was the begining of the twisting of Buffy's character. She's out of high school and three episodes into the fourth season, she's sleeping with someone? Hello, the last time she slept with someone, he lost his soul! Buffy doesn't give herself so freely, we saw this over and over during season Three and I really, really doubt such a dramatic change over sex could've happened so suddenly with no explanation whatsoever. SMG even said herself that she had gone to Joss and said 'Hey, uh, I really don't think Buffy would do this' and Joss said 'She's in college, she's going to be sleeping with guys'.
-_-
Now, to my main thing about the whole Spike/Buffy thing. Yeah, it was confirmed severel times that Spike? Replacment Angel. It bothered me that they tried to sell it off as 'True Love' in Season 7.
Here's my other bothering bit with that season. SPIKE RAPED HER AND THEN IT WAS IMMEDIETLY FORGOTTEN BECAUSE 'OH! SPIKE DOESN'T HAVE A SOUL!'
And here's the other thing. Some of the worst seasons on that show (four and six) we're because Joss had a new shiny pet project.
Season Four was Angel. I understand because hey! It's adjusting to working on two shows, it's going to be a little difficult.
As you can see, I have lots of issues.
I turned the television off every Tuesday feeling... depressed. I'm a Buffy/Angel Shipper, I heart my classic Buffy (seasons one, two and three) so yeah, that's part of why I didn't like season 6. Buffy went boning Spike and Angel and Cordelia were being shoved down our throats trying to sell us with 'kyerumption' so people would move onto C/A and would accept B/S (B/S for a reason *coughs*).
It worked on some, didn't work on me. Those weren't my characters up there. And you know something else, alot of people alot older than myself agree with me, so really, age doesn't have everything to do with it.
Season Six was when my two favorite shows went down the drain because of a shiny little bug in space. Oh-ho, I was so amazingly pissed off. He just started getting into a routine and both shows were starting to get back to being better as Joss found a good routine, but then Firefly comes along and it's 'Hey Marti, take your fascination with bleached vampire and have fun!' and whomever got to the helm at Angel (I think it was Greenwalt, who really had no experiance running a show) to take the helm at Angel while he went and made Firefly.
Oh Firefly, how bittersweet my love is for you. You're my classic Buffy Seasons one and Two, my superb Angel Season one! Joss has proved that it takes him awhile for him to juggle shows. Sadly, the shows that made him what he is, payed for it.
I love Firefly, but I love(d) Buffy and Angel more. Between network splits and abandonment by their creator? Sigh...
So yeah, ummm, I'm 16 and I look at things diffrent from you. But it pisses me off when people say that because I'm not the only one with the same viewpoint on that subject. Like I said, I know ALOT of people much older than myself who feel like that.
So the next time you want to push off an opinion because *oh, she must be oh so young* then please think a little, alright?
Bitterly going to watch Firefly because Buffy DVDs haven't arrived yet,
Gwen
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Oh Gwen, Gwen Gwen.....
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Originally posted by GwenHarker:
Season four, for me, was the begining of the twisting of Buffy's character. She's out of high school and three episodes into the fourth season, she's sleeping with someone?
Jane Espenson (the writer of the Buffy-Parker sex) chalks it up to faulty editing. At the end of "Harsh Light of Day", there was a whole conversation with Buffy talking to Willow that she had been thinking "I'm over Angel, it's not about Angel, see how much I've moved on? It's not about Angel..." and she then realizes that it IS all about Angel. But it got cut out for time. I wish they realized that when they were actually editing the ep... but whatever.
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Here's my other bothering bit with that season. SPIKE RAPED HER AND THEN IT WAS IMMEDIETLY FORGOTTEN BECAUSE 'OH! SPIKE DOESN'T HAVE A SOUL!'
He didn't rape her. He tried, and she beat his ass before he got that close. And HE DIDN'T HAVE A SOUL. Vampires are soulless. They are without souls, which mean they lack a moral compass and things get twisted. Buffy has the capacity to understand the difference. She forgave Angel before, even though while soulless he killed her friends. Spike, without a soul realized that he didn't have the capacity to understand the nuances in that mucky gray area that they were living in. Then he chose to get a soul in order to try to make things better (and yes, he always meant to go get a soul).
Why are you judging Spike the same pre-soul and post-soul and not Angel that same way? Just because he changes his name and Spike doesn't, it's still the same brain and body. Think of what Angelus did to Drusilla. He murdered her entire family and raped and tortured her until she went insane. And he was planning on doing the exact same thing to Buffy! But when Angel has a soul, he's good.
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and whomever got to the helm at Angel (I think it was Greenwalt, who really had no experiance running a show)
LOL! First of all, Greenwalt has TONS of television experience. In fact, 20th century FOX was the one who put Greenwalt on the Buffy staff in the first place because he was so experienced and Joss was brand new.
Also, Joss was never the show runner for Angel. He yayed or nayed all of the plot points, sure. But he always basically left Angel to its own devices. David Greenwalt was the show runner since the beginning until s3. Then Jeff Bell took over for the last two seasons.
And I really, really disagree that the season 6 characters were pod people. Everything that went wrong with them had seeds planted early on. Willow always used magic to make herself feel better. Xander has always felt like the useless schlubb. Giles feels deep remorse for the feeling that he's not good enough to keep his slayer/daughter figure alive. Buffy had been fighting her inner darkness for quite a while. And not to mention that she died (in a self-sacrifice, which is just another way to say "noble suicide"), was happy happy happy in heaven, brought back to life where she had to claw her way out of her own grave and immediately start fighting demons so that her friends (who did all that to her in the first place) didn't die. That's a lot to happen to a person, and if I was her I'd probably be even more moody than she was! I never understood why people expected her to get over it quickly. It's personal death, not just a bump in the road.
If Buffy was a real person, I'd be just about the exact same age as her. About a month older, actually. I have felt, and currently feel some of the exact same emotions. I know how pathetic and stupid you can feel when you realize that you are technically an adult, but all you feel is lost and aimless and totally clueless about what you're supposed to do. I'm not as self-destructive as the Scoobies. I'm more into wallowing, actually. But I understood where they're coming from.
GwenHarker, I think a lot of your issues have to do with shippiness, whi
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Well, it's already been said (and here I sing the same old song) that it's probably a mistake to put a lot of psychological baggage on JW, simply because of a theme or three that some don't think are "appropriate" (when really what that means is that some people hate, hate, hate, that a show has evolved, and that the characters must evolve as well - and, as I've seen at sites like the Fametracker forum, and AintItCool, people register spite about Firefly because it "distracted" JW from "their" shows). As has been mentioned, it's a collaborative effort, putting together a show. While BtVS, Angel, and Firefly were the brain-children of JW, just because there were torture scenes and attempted rape, one cannot state that JW has psychological issues about sado-masochism on so little evidence. (And it was attempted rape, not rape, so facts straight, first.)
People, up to and including myself, get all proprietary over shows/movies/comics/whathaveyou they enjoy. They start to think of it as theirs, when in reality, it isn't. Which is why I try to see the production side for what it is - something that comes out of the imagination of other people for entertainment value, and if I sometimes pick up a metaphor here or there that means something to me, so much the better entertainment value. This proprietariness, which I struggle with, and has caused me to whine over Buffy and Angel stuff I found icky (Connor and Cordelia being the main thing I found hard to adjust to), is just something we all have to get over. The shows aren't ours in any other sense than that we are fans. Or flans, or Browncoats, or Servants of the Master.
Re-watching certain seasons has taught me a lot about the subtexts, and helped me appreciate the differences from season to season more. What I didn't like the first time 'round, I understood better; while I, at first, was somewhat irritated by season seven of BtVS, up until Caleb (because I luuuuhrrrved Caleb), it made sense to me, and on rewatching, I found it the best round-up of all the mythology I could've wanted. Although I am still a little freaked by the implied incest between Cordelia and Connor, having three sons, I totally get the whole Oedipal thing (and please understand, that was a metaphor, not something to be taken literally).
Having been 16 or 17, and being physically 55 (oh, menopause and old accident injuries are wonderful things), I think it's a bit insular to state that
(quoted from GwenHarker):
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So yeah, ummm, I'm 16 and I look at things diffrent from you. But it pisses me off when people say that because I'm not the only one with the same viewpoint on that subject. Like I said, I know ALOT of people much older than myself who feel like that.
Everybody looks at things differently, it's a fact of invividuality, not age. Just because older folks agree with you, don't make 'em right, either. You have a different opinion, fine, but a lack of experience is a big indicator of why you have that opinion, and I would state that anyone older who would have the same opinion, is lacking in experience in the same way. It's not about whether or not you or your friends have gone through "stuff," either, it's about learning things outside yourself and your group of friends, reading philosophy, history, politics, and all kinds of esoteric things a lot of people ignore because they're too busy "living their lives." It's about understanding that those who hold opinions other than those you personally agree with have value, as well, and may indeed, have the right to hold those opinions. It's about learning to accept that your opinions may not be correct, and learning to change your mind.
I know people have differing opinions from mine, and you're welcome to them. Just because I think you're wrong, doesn't mean I think you're somehow less of a person. Just wrong.
(Edited for tags. Oops.)
"Today we get to meet the real you." Niska - War Stories
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Once again, I am late to the party and others have said what I wanted to say without being as bitchy about it as I would have been.
Xiexie.
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GwenHarker, I think a lot of your issues have to do with shippiness, which is kind of a shame... Spike isn't a replacement for Angel. I love those two vampires more than I should (especially together *ahem*) but they both represent the journey to redemption, in two totally different ways.
I completely understand what you're saying and I do love the Spike Character. I met JM at a convention and he's a great guy, but I'm only saying what was in those eps. Spike's comment about 'that's his girl' and Buffy punching him repeatedly saying 'I'm not your girl' and telling him how 'only one vampire got me hot'.
Regaurdless of attempted/commiting the rape, I was dissatisfied with the fact that it was really never addressed. I separate Spike with and without his soul, even if his character didn't really change as much. I separate Angel with and without his soul.
I'm sad that Season Four was dismal because of editing. I think it would be more realistic (as realistic as you can get with vampires) in Buffy's 'mourning period'.
And yes, I am aware that the seeds for season six were planted early on, I am able to connect the dots, just doesn't mean I have to be happy about it.
Again, this is all just my juvienille opinion, but I love my Buffy characters and I just wish that they didn't try to take Forever away from me in the later season b/c that's what attracted me to the show in the first place.
Each to his or her own, I only know what I know.
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One of the beautiful things about the writing on Mutant Enemy shows is that people from different backgrounds and life experiences can take away different things and different levels of meaning in the same things.
I remember reading LoTR when I was in high school and thinking it was fabulous. I also remember reading in 12 years later and seeing whole different levels of meaning.
That is the mark of good writing.
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