Joss' fascination with torture ?

POSTED BY: TheSomnambulist
UPDATED: Monday, December 27, 2004 17:15
VIEWED: 35028
PAGE 11 of 13

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Originally posted by PurpleBelly:
Does anyone have anything to say about Joss and torture?

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Yes.

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The original poster would probably like to know.

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Let's see, the original poster asked:

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Original poster: Does Joss have some fascination with it do you think?

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Possibly. But I don't know what that fascination could be. People are fascinated by things for so many reasons (since fascination can come from liking something or being terrified of it).

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Original poster: Or is it just a great topic for character development?

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I think it can be used for character development, or learning something about a character, or as a plot hook. (I believe the pilot of "Alias" started with her being tortured, and then jumped back in time, leaving us to wonder how she got there. Could someone correct me if I'm completely mistaken about that?)

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Original poster: What do you think?...And how well were they done?

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Do you mean, "how accurate" or "how well did the show use torture as a story device"?

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Originally posted by PurpleBelly:
How about the torture of characters with whom we do not identify?

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I have no problem with torture being part of a story -- whether the victim be Mal or Prisoner #2 -- so long as it is in support of the story. That means there has to be a reason for it beyond "it would be cool/edgy/ultraviolent to have a torture scene here!". Of course, I think the same thing about car chases, gun battles, and even dialogue. Serve the story, or get out.


What's your opinion of the torture of characters with whom we do not identify?

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ah, well...what an interesting thread.

After reading everything I am compelled to respond on two levels.

One, torture is repulsive.

Two, however, it is that element of aversion that makes one glued to the screen when it is presented that gives torture its dramatic element. When we see Niska's relitive hanging upside down and hear him screaming the automatic conclusion is that Niska is not a nice fellow. Danger flags go up. Having seen this, having heard that Jayne was all ready with his knife and the "pain is scary" bit in 'Serenity', then Jayne telling everyone that Niska is not all warm and fuzzy like he is only hightened that sense of danger. Just about the point in the show where we've forgotten about Niska along comes 'War Stories'.

The torture is a plot device to show how heartless Niska is. It conveys how much danger Mal has put his crew in by returning the medicine that they'd been contracted to take. The bells started ringing the moment I saw the space station.

The entire element of violence in the Firefly universe serves to remind us that this is not our modern society...but a vision of what might happen in our future. Sure there are things that relate back and forth but overall, most of us are blissfully unaware of the high levels of violence shown in Firefly on a daily basis...

Joss uses these elements to show that his vision of the firefly 'verse, and the buffyverse, are dark places that the normal people don't even realize are there, co-existing along side our so-called peaceful lives. Where would the inhabints of Sunnydale have been without the slayer to protect them?
Similarly I believe River would have developed along similar lines had the show stayed on the air...

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Originally posted by teraph:

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Original poster: What do you think?...And how well were they done?

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Do you mean, "how accurate" or "how well did the show use torture as a story device"?

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No, I mean; what do you all think of Joss Whedon having torture scenes in each of his shows?

Buffy
Angel
and Firefly.

To me there's some kind of excorsicm of notions.

Usually when an artist repeats his/her motifs it is because they haven't quite managed to express their original intent....

...Or they develop an obsession with a theme, to the extent that it begins to permiate their work over the course of time on a subconsious level.

I was curious what the concensus was on this topic. Wether it (torture) is viewed as:
*Joss Whedon actually having an obsession with torture, or
*Joss Whedon regarding torture as a convenient device for furthering the narrative.

Anyway it's late here. Almost 3:00am Christmas morning....And yes I can't sleep! ....Ironic considering.......

*Merry Christmas*

....TheSomnambulist :)

www.cirqus.com

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Why are we assuming that the obsession (if there is one) is Joss'?

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First thing:

Merry Christmas.

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Originally posted by TheSomnambulist:
I was curious what the concensus was on this topic. Wether it (torture) is viewed as:
*Joss Whedon actually having an obsession with torture, or
*Joss Whedon regarding torture as a convenient device for furthering the narrative.

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Well, I don't know if we'll get a consensus, but I think it's more of #2. It's an easy method of saying "this person is evil". Also, I think, in some cases it's just what would believably happen. Many times, it comes from someone wanting information, and being evil enough to use torture.

That said, I think many dramatic writers, and especially horror/dark drama writers would consider torture part of their "toolkit" of options. It, alongside sex crimes like rape, incest and sexual degradation (e.g., sex for drugs) are some of the darkest parts of human experience, and thus fodder for writers. (Cannibalism is dark too, but I don't see that very often on TV.)

How many TV serial killers have tortured or raped their victims? How many cop shows have used incest as a twist in a case? Shows like Law & Order: SVU and the Profiler were based entirely around horrible people doing horrible things.

That said, torture does seem to get more play on the Mutant Enemy than sex crimes do (although Marti Noxon made a good effort at raising the weird/creepy sex stuff in season six).

I mention Mutant Enemy, because a room full of writers comes up with these scripts, so being able to pin who suggested torture is hard. But I honestly don't Joss is obsessed with it. We may have to wait and see if it shows up in "Serenity" or not.


I'll close with a list. To my memory, these are all the acts of physical torture (ranging from the threat of torture to extreme torture) in Mutant Enemy shows.

With the exception of "Halloween" I am assuming that the character enjoys committing torture, and I thus only list "pleasure" as a reason when that is the only reason for the torture. It's possible that Glory doesn't enjoy using torture, but she's a little harder to read. It is also debatable whether Willow took any pleasure from torturing Warren. She may not have been in the mindset to enjoy anything at all.


Buffy: "When She Was Bad" (2.01)
Victim: Vamp Girl by Buffy (cross in mouth)
Writer: Joss Whedon
Reason: Information

Buffy: "Halloween" (2.06)
Victim: Ethan by Giles
Writer: Carl Ellsworth
Reason: Information

Buffy: "Becoming: Part 2" (2.22)
Victim: Giles by Angel
Writer: Joss Whedon
Reason: Information

Buffy: "The Wish" (3.09)
Victim: Angel by Vamp Willow
Writer: Marti Noxon
Reason: Pleasure

Buffy: "Enemies" (3.17)
Victim: Buffy (almost) by Faith and "Angelus"
Writer: Douglas Petrie
Reason: Pleasure

Buffy: "No Place Like Home" (5.05)
Victim: A monk by Glory
Writer: Douglas Petrie
Reason: Information

Buffy: "Intervention"
Victim: Spike by Glory
Writer: Jane Espenson
Reason: Information

Buffy: Season Five
I think Glory tortured someone else.

Buffy: "Villains" (6.20)
Victim: Warren by Willow
Writer: Marti Noxon
Reason: Revenge



Angel: "In the Dark" (1.03)
Victim: Angel by Marcus
Writer: Douglas Petrie
Reason: Information

Angel: "Five by Five" (1.18)
Victim: Wesley by Faith
Writer: Jim Kouf
Reason: I don't recall...

Angel: "Damage" (5.11)
Victim: Spike by Dana
Writer: Steven S. DeKnight & Drew Goddard
Reason: I don't recall...


Firefly: "Train Job"
Victim: Unnamed by Niska and Crow(?)
Writer: Joss Whedon and Tim Minear
Reason: Punishment (Revenge)

Firefly: "War Games"
Victim: Unknown, Mal and Wash by Niska and ?
Writer: Cheryl Cain
Reason: Punishment (Revenge)

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Originally posted by teraph:
I'll close with a list. To my memory, these are all the acts of physical torture (ranging from the threat of torture to extreme torture) in Mutant Enemy shows.

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This is a discussion a friend of mine and I had some time ago, so I'll add some.

We also included Dawn by Doc (cutting her up on the tower), Willow by that creepy thing in the cave (pulling off strips of her stomach --EW), Xander by Ashanti over the seal in the basement, Oz by the Initiative (I'm willing to hear arguements that this is a stretch), Gunn by that big dude in the basement, ditto Lindsey, Lorne by Wolfram & Hart (we saw the damage, but not the actual brainsucking), Cordy by Billy, guided by W&H, Spike by the First, Dru by Angelus (which we saw just bits of), Justine by Wesley (if you count him locking her in a closet for a summer as torture), oh, and Angleus by Holtz in a flashback.
Almost everyone on Buffy or Angel has been tortured at some point, to one extent or another. I think Joyce is the only main character that hasn't been. Unless we're not counting Tara's brain getting sucked.

I'd say there's a pattern there.:)
I just have no idea what it means.
I agree, however, that it's not necessarily indicative of anything about Whedon's mental state. I mean, some of the stuff Stephen King writes is just -- disturbing on every level there is. But he seems to be a fairly mild-mannered, normal dude, by all accounts. Normal for a guy with 40 ka-trillion dollars, that is.

But out of all that torture, what's disturbed me the most is Evil Pregnant Cordelia manipulating Connor's emotions. The scenes with the two of them almost make me physically ill. A close second is Drusilla appearing as Jenny Calendar -- that creeps me out to no end. I'll say it again -- I think the mental torture is worse to watch.

"I know your name, jackass!"

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Originally posted by Ankhagogo:
We also included Dawn by Doc (cutting her up on the tower) ... Xander by Ashanti over the seal in the basement

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I personally wouldn't include sacrifices as torture. I never got the sense that either of these cases involved someone desiring their victim to suffer, only that they die in the proper fashion.

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Willow by that creepy thing in the cave (pulling off strips of her stomach --EW)

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Gnarl! That's a good one. Talk about playing with your food.

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Oz by the Initiative (I'm willing to hear arguements that this is a stretch)

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Yes, although in their minds it would be "animal testing".

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Lorne by Wolfram & Hart (we saw the damage, but not the actual brainsucking)

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Well, we never saw it, so I don't kow how long it took. Was it just an quick act of violence, or was it torture? Are we going to try an seperate batttery from torture. Is there a line?

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Cordy by Billy, guided by W&H

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That was brain torture, wasn't it? (I barely remember that episode. I seem to recall W&H doing a couple of brain tortures on Cordy. I completely forgot to list those.)

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Justine by Wesley (if you count him locking her in a closet for a summer as torture)

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Nah. That's just imprisonment. I wouldn't count that as totrure, no matter how unjustified her imprisonment was.

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Unless we're not counting Tara's brain getting sucked.

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I wouldn't.

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I'd say there's a pattern there.:)
I just have no idea what it means.

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I think it means the same things as the regular use of rape and incest in procedural and cop shows. It's a useful writing tool for showing how cruel people can be to each other.

There is almost an audience issue too. I think viewers of Whedon shows would be more willing to accept torture than rape/incest, and viewers of the the crime shows would be more willing to accept the sex crimes than the torture. (And by "accept" I don't mean "enjoy". I mean only that they would find it a more believable part of the story's world.)

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I'll say it again -- I think the mental torture is worse to watch.

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I tend to agree. Especially if the performer is good. (Although Gnarl eating Willow was pretty hard to watch.)

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Originally posted by teraph:

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Originally posted by Ankhagogo:
We also included Dawn by Doc (cutting her up on the tower) ... Xander by Ashanti over the seal in the basement

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I personally wouldn't include sacrifices as torture. I never got the sense that either of these cases involved someone desiring their victim to suffer, only that they die in the proper fashion.

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See, I would. I don't necessarily consider torture as a desire to see someone suffer -- I think inflicting pain on someone in small steps (with or without the intended end result being death) is torture. I thought Dawn and Xander looked as if they thought they were being tortured--and actually, now that I'm thinking back, it seems like both Doc and Ashanti looked as if they were enjoying themselves.

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Lorne by Wolfram & Hart (we saw the damage, but not the actual brainsucking)

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Well, we never saw it, so I don't kow how long it took. Was it just an quick act of violence, or was it torture? Are we going to try an seperate batttery from torture. Is there a line?

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It's Wolfram & Hart -- I just assume it's torture. >:)

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Cordy by Billy, guided by W&H

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That was brain torture, wasn't it? (I barely remember that episode. I seem to recall W&H doing a couple of brain tortures on Cordy. I completely forgot to list those.)

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Oh yeah, she got locked into her visions in Season One, didn't she? But there was definitely a manifestation of physical injury on both occasions, and again -- it's W&H. I will always assume the worst intentions of them.

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Justine by Wesley (if you count him locking her in a closet for a summer as torture)

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Nah. That's just imprisonment. I wouldn't count that as totrure, no matter how unjustified her imprisonment was.

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Yeah, I actually agree -- but I suspect that, had it taken much longer to find Angel, there may have been torture involved. Hard to tell with angry Wes.

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Unless we're not counting Tara's brain getting sucked.

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I wouldn't.

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I don't think we did, either. I just remembered it as I was typing.

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I'd say there's a pattern there.:)
I just have no idea what it means.

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I think it means the same things as the regular use of rape and incest in procedural and cop shows. It's a useful writing tool for showing how cruel people can be to each other.
There is almost an audience issue too. I think viewers of Whedon shows would be more willing to accept torture than rape/incest, and viewers of the the crime shows would be more willing to accept the sex crimes than the torture. (And by "accept" I don't mean "enjoy". I mean only that they would find it a more believable part of the story's world.)

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I agree, especially if you take into consideration how people reacted to the whole Buffy-Spike (or Wes/Lilah, for that matter) "relationship", or to Early's threats to Kaylee in Objects in Space. Lots of people were mildly to extremely disturbed by those things, while very few responded in the same way to War Stories or whichever one it was where Angelus tortured Giles.

"I know your name, jackass!"

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