Joss' fascination with torture ?

POSTED BY: TheSomnambulist
UPDATED: Monday, December 27, 2004 17:15
VIEWED: 35028
PAGE 9 of 13

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Originally posted by maugwai:
Okay, Purplebelly, let's all get it straight on just how morally superior you really are. I gather then, that you find each of the following items offensive?

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You speak of things outside of my experience, especially moral superiority; please see previous postings about sensibilities

EDIT: isn't this OT? Better ask Hotpoint if we should flag it

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Originally posted by Hotpoint:
Because I would not limit freedom of speech or expression does not mean I "fully approve" of everything anyone has to say merely that I'll tolerate it

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Could you describe in fresh terms, the extent to which the depiction of torture as entertainment could be tolerated? Any reference to Whedon's opus would help keep us on-topic; we really don't want to start discussing me

Anyway, it's after midnight for both of us - Have a Happy Christmas.

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....following quote edited to remove my words, 'cause I remember what I said....

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Originally posted by SimonWho:

Not least because of all the other questions you could ask of yourself in a similar vein.

*adopts rubbish German accent*

"So, you like this show set in the future, yes? Are you unhappy in the present? Do you wish to be hundred of miles and years away from here, yah? Tell me about your mother."

It's a TV show, to say we're there to enjoy torture is tenuous beyond belief.

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I just had to say, this is very amusing (and sorry for taking so long to comment). I personally blame all my personality flaws on my mother, up to and including my (supposed) penchant for watching people hurt other people. "Ja, meine frau, das ist gut! Sprechen sie all about your History Channel fixation, und I vill explain your neuroses." So far, 19 neuroses, and counting.

"Today we get to meet the real you." Niska - War Stories

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Some late and very random observations about the issues raised in this, uh, lively thread.

--Joss Whedon's tv shows have all posited the existence of very powerful evil in their 'verses. All those Big Bads. Because torture is such an extreme violation of one person by another, it becomes a shorthand for the serious, way beyond your garden variety evils that villains in the Jossverse practice.

--What does it mean to be able to watch the tortures Joss dishes out? Well, it can mean a whole range of things. There are people who do "enjoy" watching simulated tortures. There is S&M as both sexual practice and sexual fantasy that never goes into real world serial mutilator sorts of sadism. There are shoe fetishists who were probably getting a very different charge out of Carrie's Manolos on "Sex and the City" than the rest of us.

But there are people who can tolerate watching the depiction of torture in the service of a powerful drama or as a means to revealing interesting things about characters without finding the torture in and of itself enjoyable.

Then there are people who simply can't watch these depictions without being so repulsed that they have to turn away. As they say in fanfic circles, everyone has their "squicks." I can't watch depictions of medical procedures and also usually turn away from people being beaten up. Yet I could watch the tortures in "War Stories" without being squicked. (I think it's because we don't see a lot of blood or exposed internal organs.)

Finally, there may be people who simply believe that it is morally wrong to depict torture in the service of entertainment. From PB's statements, I'd guess that this is where he's coming from. To tolerate "War Stories" is tantamount to approving of bear-baiting, or cockfighting, or giving thumbs down to the gladiators in the arena, even though no real pain is felt or real blood shed.

--Does taking any one of the above positions on torture in the Jossverse relate to one's political beliefs, age, or place of residence. I'd have to say that it is much more a case of individual sensibilities. Had PB simply said, "I couldn't bear watching those scenes again, how did you others manage?" we would have had a very different thread.

PB, the way you have phrased all your questions about "the demographic" and "torture as entertainment," you have seemed to imply a) a moral deficiency on the part of those who do not for whatever reason turn away from those scenes in "War Stories" and b) to relate it to some alarming quality inherent in, at various points, non-Europeans, non-liberals, people younger than you, people who own televisions (and thus are under the sway of mass culture?), or "The majority audience" (who are by definition not those of refined sensibilities, because refined sensibilities are always the attribute of the few?)

I don't think I'm the only one on this board who took your original statement as insinuating, "Of course, I'm not one of those yahoo Yanks with their vulgar, violence-saturated popular culture who just re-elected that dangerous, stupid cowboy George W. Bush."

Cardie

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Originally posted by Cardie:
From PB's statements, I'd guess that this is where he's coming from. To tolerate "War Stories" is tantamount to approving of bear-baiting, or cockfighting, or giving thumbs down to the gladiators in the arena, even though no real pain is felt or real blood shed.

If this is the case, I have to say I don't understand it. There's a huge difference between being able to tolerate torture or human combat in a fictional setting, and being able to tolerate it in actual life. I for one won't watch things where the pain is real -- Jackie Chan tends to make me queasy, as he's still doing all his own stunts last I checked. Actually, if I know it's even based on reality, it bothers me -- war movies being the obvious example.

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PB, the way you have phrased all your questions about "the demographic" and "torture as entertainment," you have seemed to imply a) a moral deficiency on the part of those who do not for whatever reason turn away from those scenes in "War Stories" and b) to relate it to some alarming quality inherent in, at various points, non-Europeans, non-liberals, people younger than you, people who own televisions (and thus are under the sway of mass culture?)

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it may be that, regardless of domicile, I have the sensibilities of a middle-aged pinko-liberal of moderate education without a TV

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I guess the most obvious question I would have that I haven't seen asked (and sorry if I missed it & am repeating)is "How on earth did you watch/are you watching Firefly if you don't own a TV?"
It doesn't bother me if people have those "Kill Your TV" stickers -- hey, that's your right. But if you say you don't own a TV, then proceed to become a member of a website specifically dedicated to a fairly recent TV show, taking a screenname that's slang within that show's universe, a show that is only currently available on DVD, which you need a TV to view-- well, you've already undermined a large part of your image or arguement. Sure, you could be going to a friend's house to watch it, but that would be rather hypocritical,as if you were saying, "I only watch TV at other people's houses, cause I won't have an idiotbox in mine." (insert upturned nose here) That's like saying I'm not a smoker because I only bum smokes off of other people.

"I know your name, jackass!"

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