Joss' fascination with torture ?
POSTED BY: TheSomnambulist
UPDATED: Monday, December 27, 2004 17:15
VIEWED: 35028
PAGE 4 of 13
Quote:
Originally posted by PurpleBelly:
But I'm not really interested in me, perhaps the European posters could suggest when torture as entertainment becomes unacceptable to them? So far, the consensus seems to be that it's alright if accompanied by jokes and provides the justification for subsequent slaughter.
I cannot really be said to speak on behalf of three quarters of a billion Europeans but personally I do not object to "torture as entertainment"* specifically because I am a Liberal and therefore believe there should be no limits of freedom as long as the exercise of that freedom does not infringe upon the liberty of others.
Not liking something is a truly illiberal reason for thinking it shouldn't exist
BTW. Actually it's not the humour that means I personally had zero problem with watching the scenes in War Stories but the drama of the situation
* simulated torture of course
...................................
Hurrah, hurrah, when things are at their worst
With cries of “Death or Glory” comes the mighty Twenty-First
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by PurpleBelly:Quote:I don't know the dates, but private schools are less regimented in their approach to study than state schools, A-level courses may be started earlier and completed in a more concentrated time-frame. IIRC Whedon pursued two consecutive courses in English at A-level.
Originally posted by heb:
I'm pretty sure he only studied towards A-levels (without actually taking them) at Winchester in England, which means he was just there for two years 16-18ish ...
http://filmforce.ign.com/articles/425/425492p2.html
http://filmforce.ign.com/articles/425/425492p3.html
"Well, let's see. I went from Riverdale, a fairly progressive private school that my mother taught at, where I'd gone for ten-and-a-half years, since first grade – because it went all the way through, K-12. I went from that, having never been out of the country, to a 600-year-old all male boarding school where I actually listened to a lecture on why co-education will never work. The cultural difference couldn't have been huger. The only thing that was the same was that, like at Riverdale, I had no money and was surrounded by very rich people."
"It was not the instructor's choice – it was whatever play was on the A levels that year. And because I actually wasn't planning on going to university in England, the tests themselves were not that important, so I started on A level English when I got there, which was above – I was still at O-levels in everything else. Then sort of bumped back to a different A level ... I think Lear and Othello were the main ones for the second one, but for the first we studied Hamlet. This was a thing where, in A levels, your getting into a decent university depends on three tests. That's it. You spend the last two years of high school studying for those three tests, and you choose your three subjects. It's very odd, but it's also great because I didn't have to take math or science."
Hopefully these quotes will answer the question.
...................
Well, my sister's a ship... we had a
complicated childhood
.................
I wear the cheese. It does not wear me.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:You were at Fratton Park on Sunday
Originally posted by Hotpoint:
... personally I do not object to "torture as entertainment" ...
NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by PurpleBelly:
You were at Fratton Park on Sunday
No. Torture is having Jim Smith join Harry Redknapp over at Southampton. If they turn up over here ever again someone is likely to fetch a rope
Apologies to all for the threadjack btw
...................................
Hurrah, hurrah, when things are at their worst
With cries of “Death or Glory” comes the mighty Twenty-First
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:I'm a native of Sussex so you'll understand that, after looking at your profile, the level of violence you're prepared to accept has become clear to me - I've heard stories about the Provost Marshal's men
Originally posted by Hotpoint:
Apologies to all for the threadjack btw
NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Forgive me if someone else has already mentioned this but the vast majority of torture scenes in Angel and the War Stories torture scene was written by Tim Minear. I am sure Joss had input, of course but let's give Tim his evil due!
Buffy torture belongs to those other than Tim because despite the rumors tothe contrary, Tim never worked on Buffy.
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Personally, I think it's a mistake to construe too much of another's personality from an episode of (admittedly excellent) television, because one can never extrapolate the full psychology of another person simply from what he writes or produces. Most especially in a medium like television, where there is input from more than one person.
"War Stories" was actually written by Cheryl Cain (with, I assume, input from Joss Whedon and Tim Minear), and directed by James Contner (a Mutant Enemy vet). So, really, the hypothesis the JW has a thing for torture, as relates to this episode, falls apart. Forgive me, but I'm not going to go research all the Buffy and Angel eps that have torture in them and find out who wrote and directed those.
As one of my fave Firefly eps, "War Stories" has a couple of subtexts that I find interesting - be careful what you wish for, because you might just get it, being one (Wash wanting to have a War Story of his own); that personal vengeance on someone who has done you wrong isn't actually necessary is another (Mal saying, "no, no I don't" when Zoe says, "Don't, he needs to do this for himself"). One of the biggest messages I got out of it (and this is just my own perspective, I don't expect anyone to agree) is that an individual can get through anything, even dying, by knowing that, inside, whatever happens, one is always oneself.
Simply by not giving Niska what he wanted (whatever esoteric goal that may have been), Mal showed that, inside, he was free, and he would always remain free. I think that's important.
My own opinion on the recurrence of torture themes in the three JW shows is that all shows are about extremes - whether horror, fantasy, sci-fi, they all deal with extremes of human behaviour, and torture is an extreme form of human behaviour. I don't recall a character that was tortured unto death (with the notable exception of Warren, and even then he was tortured then blasted to pieces), and the characters who survived underwent changes that, in my opinion, made them more interesting for having that experience. Not that I'd recommend being tortured to be more interesting, but I am talking about fiction.
I don't expect authors of horror stories, or those who write about psychopaths, to be psychologically bent. They may be, sometimes, but I'm guessing it has little to do with how and what they write. We all have imaginations, and sometimes our imaginations take us to dark places. Thinking about it, or writing about it, doesn't mean we're going to do something awful, that we practice sado-masochism every Thursday night, or that we run over squirrels deliberately (it was an accident!).
Unless one is a close, personal friend, of Joss Whedon, or, y'know, married to him, I think discussing his married or personal life is in extremely bad taste. Hey, if one were a close personal friend of JW, or married to him, discussing these things in public is in the worst taste imaginable.
Just my buck-oh-five.
"Today we get to meet the real you." Niska - War Stories
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Pretty much what you said.
See my post above. Tim says he wrote the torture scenes in War Stories and he is the one responsible for killing Mal.
And no true fan of the Tim Reaper is surprised by this. LOL
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Yeah, I caught your post after I spent (too much) time writing mine. ;-D If my son wasn't watching a Treehouse of Horror DVD, I would've thrown War Stories in (obsessive, moi?) and gotten more detail, instead of doing a quick'n'dirty net search. Heh.
"Today we get to meet the real you." Niska - War Stories
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Quote:
Originally posted by PurpleBelly:
But I'm not really interested in me, perhaps the European posters could suggest when torture as entertainment becomes unacceptable to them?
So far, the consensus seems to be that it's tolerable if accompanied by jokes and provides the justification for subsequent slaughter.
Well, I'm not a European, but I'll take a shot at this.
I doubt anyone here finds torture entertaining.
Most apparently find a scene that includes torture can be entertaining. They are not, however, getting off on the torture. They are entertained by the dramatic and emotional events of the scene. They are entertained by the struggles of the characters. Not by the torture itself.
You suggest in an earlier post that Whedon's audience is entertained by the suffering of others. I disagree. We are entertained by characters and how they respond the events of their lives. I doubt that many people here enjoy the actual suffering. I doubt that anyone here tuned-in to "Objects in Space" because they get off on watching someone threatened with rape. They tuned in because they care about the characters and their situations. They care about how the characters respond. They care about how the characters overcome challenges.
The subject of "War Stories" is "let us see the real you". The torture is a dramatic device to allow that to happen. We see more of the real Book and more of the real River. We see the real love Zoe has for Wash. And Wash, in that room with Mal, sees the real Mal. He sees why his wife follows him. He sees what inspires the loyalty. In that room, being tortured, Mal does everything in his power to keep Wash aware and strong. He does everything he can to take Wash's attention away from the pain. His focus is on helping a member of his crew get through. Mal attacking Niska isn't the real him. Mal trying to keep Wash strong is the real him.
Yes, we laugh when they are arguing about Mal and Zoe. We should. The argument is so completely absurd in light of their predicament. It's also the best thing Mal can do to help some he cares about. Nobody is laughing at the torture, and the scene isn't about the torture. If it was, they wouldn't have bothered with all the pesky dialogue.
This show is a drama. Bad things are going to happen. In this case, really bad things.
And it's entertaining. Just like King Lear being blinded is entertaining. Just like a pair of star-crossed lovers having their relationship be destroyed is entertaining.
Just because I am entertained by those things doesn't mean I took pleasure in the suffering. I take no pleasure in how Romeo and Juliet ends.* But the play entertains me. I don't like the end of "The Professional" but I think it's a great movie. I don't like what happens to any of the characters in "Requiem for a Dream" but I own the DVD.
Torture as entertainment is not acceptable to most people. Including most people who liked this episode. Thankfully, this episode does not present torture as entertainment. We are not watching to see the torture. We are not focused on the act or torture. We look at its consequences, and we are entertained by how the characters react. We look at the story, and it is definitely not a story about torture.
(*Although I recall a production of R&J where the audience wanted Juliet to die, but that was an issue of bad acting. The audience wanted their own suffering to stop.)
NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME