Paranormal experiences & Dreams
POSTED BY: piratejenny
UPDATED: Thursday, September 1, 2005 22:52
VIEWED: 14949
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Religion has long used trances, herbs, meditation and so forth to communicate with the "Spirit world". We now understand that peyote, for example, is a simple hallucinogen. Some of these paranormal experiences, as convincing as they are to the experiencer, may be nothing much more than a brain glitch.
Religion is all about power, its about giving up power and giving away power its about looking outside of ones self, for answers instead of looking in, its about giving up respossiblity, and putting that respossiblity onto something outside of ourselves
spirtual matters do not have to be tied to any religion unless the person whoes having such an experience wants to believe that something outside of himself is responssible for the experiences
but we are physical beings we do live in this physical,material world..and our five senses are grounded in this world, totally shaping our perceptions of our world...the brain is part of the physical body...and could very well be an antenna to the metaphysical world..certain drugs could open up path ways to other senses that we don't use..doesn't mean that these experiences aren't happening
I think this is where science often makes its mistake by assuming that if it can't be readily explained..then its little more then a brain glitch
If our spirts survive after our physical body dies, then it would make sense that apart of us, the spirtual part would operate in a totally diffrent way. thats not bound by the laws of the material world..ways that we can't explain at this point in time..but perhaps will be able to in the future
I think we have these experiences to let us know to remind us that we are more then what we see..or appear..we are more then these bodies we inhabit
we as a speices may not understand pyschic ablities or how it works..but we know that it exsist..that it is an abilty that people have..as I'm sure there are other abilites people have , such as moving objects with thoughts etc..etc..
ther are more then just the five senses that we depend so heavily on that grounds our perceptions, just because we only use five doesn't mean there aren't more that may operate on another level and open the door to other worlds that we can't precieve...
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RUE Wrote:
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My personal perspective about why it is so important to maintain these vital distinctions is that without them, the battle in the classrooms between science and religion masquerading as science, is lost.
I think this is so important..Religion, Science, Metaphysical
are 3 seperate things
religion is a belife system , science is the study of our physical world and how it operates and to use and manipulate that knowlege for our use, the metaphysical world has yet to be explained
I think people get confused and its easy to see why religion tries to take on science and the metaphysical usually with some supernatural bent
science tries to stay grounded in the physical...and does so for the most part and tries to ignore the metaphysical..which becomes a problem..because as spirtual beings we are operating on two levels the physical and the spirtual, often times when faced with the paranormal metaphysical..science tends to chalk it up to a brain glitch..instead of taking it more seriously.
so yes ..
Is it any wonder that Regilion as been able to take spirtual truths and twist and turn them for their benifit
But unlike religion science readily admits that it does not have all the answers, and their is much to be learned, This is why Science is our best hope ....but its science that is going to have to start laying the ground work...
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PirateJenny, I don't know where to begin with the Lucifer stuff. A truly inspired summary of the Lucifer Rebelion, its success and consequences for the human race can be found in a book called "Nothing in This Book is True, but It's Exactly How Things Are" by Bob Frissell. I just gotta say that people do know how the pyramids were made and the history of our race is available. I'd be willing to bet that the old man from your dreamlife is one of them that knows. You just can't get this stuff from a book or take a course in it. The first thing you gotta learn is discernment and cultivate an unwavering faith in your intuition. You've got to got to find that old man again and tell us what he said!
I'll definetly check out the book thanks
I've wondered about that recurring dream since it started...if I ever have it again, I hope I can remember what the old man said!!
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Originally posted by piratejenny:
I think this is where science often makes its mistake by assuming that if it can't be readily explained..then its little more then a brain glitch
I'd hate to do this as I agree with a lot of what you say, but this statement is rather inaccurate.
It isn't so much that science ignores this, it's that it isn't reproducable. Which is what science is based on. ie I come up with theory X, which I then do experiments to prove. If I am succesful, I publish the results and then other people will do the same experiment testing the results as well as others making other experiments to test the same theory. If all goes well then it is accepted and the cycle continues.
The problem with the experiences described here, is that they are not reproducable. They are different every time. Thus evading science's methodes.
Perhaps at one point in the future science will stumble across something that will lead in this direction. But until then, this is all *way* outside the realm of science.
There is also the idea of Achems razor...
----
"Canada being mad at you is like Mr. Rogers throwing a brick through your window." -Jon Stewart, The Daily Show
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Originally posted by SignyM:
Just to lob something into the discussion... then I goota go and play tennis, get exercised and all that...
Scientists are beginning to study the brains of people who have unusual experiences or who are trained in various forms of meditation. There are certain types of experiences, such as deja vu, jamais vu, or extreme depersonalization, that are already known to be caused by temporal lobe seizures. THere was a recent report of a person undergoing neurosurgery whose "out-of-body" neurons were stimulated while the surgeons were probing for functional areas. (It happened repeatedly, with each stimulation) I think it was in the deep temporal lobe. Buddhist monks who are deeply trained in a type of meditation aimed at increasing inner peace and outer awareness show a very different pattern of brainwaves (higher frequency than nml, and in different areas) than "regular" people. And certain type of manias (orographia) which tend to focus on religious or spiritual themes, are also a form of seizure. Even that "moving towards the light" that dying people have reported is hypothesized to be a form of neural shutdown.
Religion has long used trances, herbs, meditation and so forth to communicate with the "Spirit world". We now understand that peyote, for example, is a simple hallucinogen. Some of these paranormal experiences, as convincing as they are to the experiencer, may be nothing much more than a brain glitch.
Signy! "Brain glitch?" Ouch! Seriously, you can be pretty cutting sometimes, you know that? You gotta understand though, from where I sit, your comments on the spirit world and temporal lobe seizures would be pretty insulting if they weren't so...well, silly really.
It's like somebody trying to tell me that Spain doesn't exist because they've never been there. Oh, and then they go on to say that none of the people they respect (who haven't been there either, of course) also deny Spain's existence. Well, I've been there. Several people who have contributed to this thread have been to this "Spain" I'm talking about as well. You seem pretty closed to the idea of "Spain." Is that true?
Yes, there are brain malfunctions that resemble in some ways some aspects of paranormal experience, but an actual experience--such as ConnorFlynn described--is a lot more complicated and coherent than a "brain glitch." To return to my light-hearted metaphor, it's as if my Spain-denying friend tried to prove her point by saying that airports aren't even really airports at all, they're actually just malls. She shows me a picture of a mall and a picture of an airport terminal and says, "See, see, the same!" Well, yeah, it's the same, except for the runways and plains and these two tickets to Spain in my pocket!
Here's a thing: one thing that paranormal experiences have in common, what basically renders them "para" in the first place, is that they are all what I would call phenomenologically "shy." More often than not they involve an encounter with non-human consciousness. This non-human consciousness I would characterize as "choosy." These things don't just manifest for anybody. And they don't have a schedule. People try to "believe" in them and wish them into manifesting, but all too often that just gets them mired in illusion.
So this Spain of mine is "shy." The harsh light of day sends it into hiding. And in the dark of night, of course, it's too dark to see anything. The best time to see "Spain" then, is at Twilight. All the drugs and other devices used by seers over the centuries are designed not to create a "Spain" but to create a kind of mental twilight where Spain is visible. It is a comparatively susceptible state of mind (you're high!), but it is not mere abandonment of reason to the seer. That's why seers practice meditations and such, so that they can exercise the extraordinary discernment needed to see clearly in the twilight.
So, in a way, your "brain glitch" also creates this mental twilight. All of these things
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SigmaNunki wrote:
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It isn't so much that science ignores this, it's that it isn't reproducable. Which is what science is based on. ie I come up with theory X, which I then do experiments to prove. If I am succesful, I publish the results and then other people will do the same experiment testing the results as well as others making other experiments to test the same theory. If all goes well then it is accepted and the cycle continues.
The problem with the experiences described here, is that they are not reproducable. They are different every time. Thus evading science's methodes.
even when I wrote that, I knew it wasn't totally accurate..so I'm going to wax a little.
There is a part of the science community that is reactionary..and what I mean by that is that since the Rennisance days when coming out of the Dark Ages where religion was such a stifling and intergrated part of peoples lives, people couldn't sneeze without there being some religious reason for it.everything had a religious bent, or could be explained or reasoned away by relgion.
The Scientific community took on a reactionary stance to anything that might be misconstured or taken as religion..and that is one of the main reasons why the scientific community does not actively focus on the spirtual/ metaphysical part of life( not to say that there aren't scientist out there who don't have an intrest, but for the most part paranormal spirtual metaphysical matters are not highly looked on so to speak)
but no matter how much the scientific community might like to shuck those matters off, they can't because that is the duelity of our nature..its who we are..
I do believe that in time the scientific community will move away from this reactionary way ..but its not going to happen overnight..scientist aren't going to have a choice, we are spirtual beings in a physical body in the material world there is a duelity there..and by just focusing on one aspect the physical, it is not going to provide the answers nor will the puzzle ever be complete if they do so they will be forced to deal with it eventually one way or another.
Not to say that some things aren't brain glitch's to use that as an example, not every experience that a person has is spirtual metaphysical in nature..but there are a percentage of them that are..and ignoring that or not dealing with it or tossing it aside , isn't going to make it not so..eventually it will have to be dealt with..so I don't exactly know if ignoring is the right word..when it comes to the scientic community, its not even so much that its not being ignored as much as it is just being kept quite , because if its not reproducable then whats the point.
But you can see how this reactionary attitude leave people feeling there is much left to be desired, it just doesn't cut it, telling someone they just had a brain glitch doesn't add up..Its a very glib and sort of arrogant way of dismissing their experience because it can't be reproduced by any current methods or explained..right!!
(There has to be an awareness and an acknowlegement of the spirtual metaphysical, so that everything won't be chalked up to something physical )
Its really sad..because we need science ..we need you guys..and we need you badly
Is it any wonder that people turn to religion, and what a disservice that is, because nothing will screw you up faster and have you more confused then religion.
Its not exspected of the scientific community to have all the answers....this should be a learning process as much as much as it can..we want and need to understand..but what we do need is a concentrated effort and acknowlegement..we don't need your reaction to past events.
I think most people turn to religion, not just out of ignorance and fear ..but also because there is little else to help them to truly understand these things.
We are spirtual beings..but in this civilzation we go about our lives somewhat disconneted from that part of ourselves, we don't really talk about these things we just keep it inside we
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@PirateJenny:
Not to be snide here, but I'm not really sure that you read my post, or at least the part you quoted. It is my belief that you've become reactionary in your response because I've taken a different stance than you have. That or we are having one hell of a time getting across to one another 
My stance in one sentence is at the end of the post.
But, to be certain, I think that one day we'll have it figured this all out one way or another. But, I do know that people *are* doing this research. Don't make the mistake that because it isn't in "mainstream science" that it isn't being looked at.
One of the problems that you don't seem to be acknowledging is reproducibility. As stated before, this is the reason why most people don't take such things seriously. Science is based on the idea of reproducibility. If it isn't there, then science can say nothing, nor do anything about it. It's one of its limiting factors.
So, if you have a way to make anything in this realm reproducible, then in all seriousness, I'd like to hear it. I'd like to try it and see if I can do it. If I can, I'll get my wife to try too. If we can then we can try to get others (ones with open minds) to do it to. Once something like this happens then, and only then will it be persuded in earnest by the scientific community.
Basically,
all attempts to reproduce this have yet to be successful. Change that, you create a new field of science.
And yes, this should be talked about more 
----
"Canada being mad at you is like Mr. Rogers throwing a brick through your window." -Jon Stewart, The Daily Show
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@PirateJenny:
Not to be snide here, but I'm not really sure that you read my post, or at least the part you quoted. It is my belief that you've become reactionary in your response because I've taken a different stance than you have. That or we are having one hell of a time getting across to one another My stance in one sentence is at the end of the post.
I read all of your post and I apolojise if I didn't make myself clear, I have no problem with you having a diffrent stance and I welcome anything you have to say on the subject because I find it interesting, and respect your opinion, so I'll try to address the issue as best I can.
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One of the problems that you don't seem to be acknowledging is reproducibility. As stated before, this is the reason why most people don't take such things seriously. Science is based on the idea of reproducibility. If it isn't there, then science can say nothing, nor do anything about it. It's one of its limiting factors.
I understand what your saying about reproducibilty, and that these experiences aren't reproducable at least at this time..I understand that..and although my response was reactionary, it wasn't to your post...it was to the scientific community as a whole.
I did acknowlege that there are scientist doing research on this subject..of course they are, but I guess what I should have just come out and said was, yes even though its not reproducable..why isn't it main stream..actually my whole post was about the reason why its not mainstream, and I could very well be wrong but I'm of the opinion that it has less to do with reproducablity and more to do with reaction, and thats because the scientific community has taken a reactionary stance to anything that might be miscontrued as religion..wether or not its reproducable or not(because in the past such matters were a high priority to the scientific community)
I understand that your saying unless the scientific community has something to show, the public, that says ..yep..see here..this is true because look we can prove it, that they don't want to come out.
But don't we have to start somewhere!!
as you know and say... this subject is being researched,that being so.. any light that can be shed on it is just as great a benifit to mankind as knowlege of a cure for cancer..more so even.
the point I was trying to make was..wether or not any of the paranormal metaphysical experiences can be reproduced or not, its still something thats going to have to be dealt with..there is no getting around it because its here it exsist..and a way to start doing that is acknowleging it and being aware of it, thats laying the ground work and giving a foundation to build upon..
If the scientific community did this, maybe more people would talk about it and feel ok talking about it and most people would know that this stuff isn't uncommon..and we might be one step closer to figuring this stuff out.
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Science is based on the idea of reproducibility. If it isn't there, then science can say nothing, nor do anything about it. It's one of its limiting factors.
I'm just a layman, you are the scientist, but I wasn't aware of limitations being put on science, I always thought science was about knowlege and truth..and as a scientist you went wherever that took you , I didn't know as a scientist you said I'm going to limit myself to this or that..
I always thought if something did not work then you searched for something that did work, you didn't say no I can't do this or test that because its outside of the box..no pun intended but I thought science was about going where no one has gone before..if you have to go down the yellow brick road to find answers..then thats what you did..if thats where you have to go to prove something or find answers thats what you did!
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Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
Basically,
all attempts to reproduce this have yet to be successful. Change that, you create a new field of science.
Rupert Sheldrake is doing all kinds of research with all kinds of repeatable results about ESP in humans and animals, but he is totally marginalized outside the "new age" community and is laughed at. The theory that humans went through a semiaquatic stage of developement during the "missing link" period is overwhelmingly supported by morphology and no one's heard of it. Chromozonal evidence that the oldest humans were from Australia is marginalized because of the Leakey Foundation and common prejudice that the most primitive humans must have been African.
No, the scientific method does not prescribe these prejudices, but human ego and rigidity do. Science can be used just like any other institution to control ideas and information and make the powerful more so.
Why are we still talking about this?
HKCavalier
Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.
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Here's a nice, repeating event to be investigated. I've seen the light at Maco station myself. This light appeared frequently enough to get the railroad to change procedures and use two signal lights at this station instead of the usual one. A brief search of the internet for "Maco Light" will bring you dozens of web pages and the Maco light story has made it into several books about hauntings due to it's steadfast repetition and longevity.
http://www.invink.com/x309.html
North Carolina Ghosts & Legends
by Nancy Roberts
The Light at Maco Station - Over the years this flickering light has eluded all attempts at explanation
There was fog in the low places and out of the blackness overhead fell a fine, steady rain. It made little ponds of the ruts in the lonely country road.
Hugged by scrub pines, vines, and underbrush, the road straggled for perhaps a hundred yards. Then the woods stopped abruptly and there lay the wet, softly gleaming rails at Maco Station.
Maco lies fourteen miles west of Wilmington on the Wilmington-Florence-Augusta line of what is now the Atlantic Coast Line Railroad. It is today much as it must have looked to Joe Baldwin years ago.
Joe was conductor of a train headed toward Wilmington that rainy night of 1867. Just fourteen miles from home his thoughts turned to his family. Would his wife be up to greet him?
Even his train sounded as if it were glad to be on the home stretch. There was something comforting about the chugging noise of its wood-burning engine. For the moment Joe forgot the shower of soot and sparks which be battled daily to keep his coaches clean.
It was time now to go through the cars ahead and call out the station. He glanced proudly at his gold railroad man's watch. The hands of the watch read three minutes 'til midnight. Just about on time.
He tugged at the door at the end of the car. The night was so dark he couldn't see the outline of the car ahead. As he managed to open the door, he swung his lantern a little ahead of his body. The foot outstretched to step forward stopped in midair. Here was no car ahead! He was in the last coach of the train and it had come uncoupled.
Panic surged through him and for a moment he could hardly get his breath. His first thought was of the train which there was a wild car in front of them.
He raced back through the car. With one mighty heave he wrenched open the heavy door at the rear and was out on the platform. He felt his own coach losing speed and as it did he saw the huge, fiery eye of the train which followed him.
He began to swing his lantern back and forth, back and forth, more furiously as the distance between him and the advancing train grew smaller.
The pursuing train plunged on through the night, its cyclops eye burning balefully. With terrific impact it hurtled into the rear of the runaway coach completely demolishing it. In the collision Joe's head was severed from his body.
A witness said that his lantern waved desperately until the last, then rose in the air, and inscribing a wide arc, landed in a nearby swamp. It flickered there for a moment and then the flame continued burning clear and strong.
Not long afterward lovers strolling near the railroad late at night reported seeing a strange light along the tracks. It would start about a mile from Maco Station--just a flicker over the left rail. Then it would advance, glowing brighter as it came up the track. Faster and faster it seemed to come, swinging from side to side. There would be a pause and it would start backwards, for a moment hanging suspended where it had first appeared, and then it would be gone.
Watchers over the years have said that the light is Joe Baldwin's lantern and that Joe is hunting for his head. Once the light was gone for over a month but it always comes back. Joe seems to prefer dark, rainy nights.
After roads were built in the area, skeptics maintained that the light was merely a reflection. Several years ago all traffic in the area was blocked off while a group of observers watched for the light. Joe ap
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