Real World Event Discussions
Dems, Dem-lites and Independents, who ya backing at this point and why?
POSTED BY: WISHIMAY
UPDATED: Monday, June 3, 2024 14:53
VIEWED: 19566
PAGE 17 of 24
Wednesday, April 17, 2019 4:40 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by captaincrunch:Quote:
Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:
I've spent 6 of my working years not doing any work.
You crack me up - you must be a comedian. Seriously. You are incapable of learning a single thing. You aren't that special, bra. Why did you spend 6 years not working? Like Wish said, like you go bleating on about your current sh*t job - working a job sucks. You even answered your own question, "I've spent 6 of my working years not doing any work." You can't even agree with yourself - what a freaking doorknob.
Once again, taking a single sentence of many paragraphs out of context.
Why don't you try putting your response here while quoting the entire thing?
Because it wouldn't make any sense. That's why.
Obviously, my point was to illustrate the terrible depths that people can let themselves slide into, such as depression, poor decision making and self-destructive behavior when they choose not to do any work.
This reply from you is just one more piece of evidence of what a small-minded asshole you truly are.
Do Right, Be Right. :)
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Wednesday, April 17, 2019 7:17 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:
Once again, taking a single sentence of many paragraphs out of context.
I try to keep it simple for you, so you don't drift onto something else. I will try and make it even simpler for you next time.
Quote:
Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:
Why don't you try putting your response here while quoting the entire thing?
Because I'm not responding to "the entire thing." You answered your own question, so I highlighted it for you. And even then you still don't get it, or refuse to understand.
Quote:
Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:
Obviously, my point was to illustrate the terrible depths that people can let themselves slide into, such as depression, poor decision making and self-destructive behavior when they choose not to do any work.
Thank god you were the only one in America that's ever happened to. No one else has ever struggled like you have. F*cksake.
Quote:
Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:
This reply from you is just one more piece of evidence of what a small-minded asshole you truly are.
Still having a hard time understanding how many households are double income? Did you see that link that said average rent in Indianapolis is $800 a month? That's a big city for Indiana, so rents will be even higher there than outside the city limits. Maybe only $600 a month? Split between 2 people making $2000... yeah, you're right. There's no room left after rent to pay for the Mazerati.
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Wednesday, April 17, 2019 7:21 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by captaincrunch:Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:Quote:Oh, bullshit, WISHY.
No, it's more than clear that you "discuss" things because you are only wanting people to think like YOU. That only YOUR topics are important. Your topics are THE MOST IMPORTANT THING EVER AND THEY ARE THE ONLY ONES THAT CAN BE DISCUSSED AT ALL TIMES. See what you look like???
The reason why I can't have a decent discussion WITH YOU and half of the people on this board is because most of you don't know how to THINK, much less discuss!
I propose an idea and what do I get?
REAVERBOT and THUGR name-calling, SECOND holding an endless one-sided rant about Trump, YOU endlessly harping about why I should never post ... anything that I post, GSTRING weaseling, ... lies about what I posted, who I am and what I "really" mean ...
I was willing to discuss Booker. He's not my favorite candidate but I would have been happy to bird-dog what you knew of him, what "I" knew of him, what that meant for his overall approach and whether or not there was merit in the ideas that I originally disagreed with.
I learned about Buttigieg. Interesting dude, I think his view of the Presidency ... where politicians come together for the sake of good government ... is a little naive ... and so far I don't know how he feels about issues that are important to me, but hey. I'm willing to discuss.
I think I took the idea of UBI about as far as it could go. I compared its cost to the total budget, its payouts compared to Social Security, it's probable effects on balance of trade and inflation, and so far it doesn't sound workable. But if someone comes up with some back-of-the envelope calcs of taxation changes that are supposed to come with it, then I'll have another look at it.
What I find is that some people have a few pretty shallow ideas about what they think our problems are and how they think they should be solved, but I never even get to ask people ... Why do you think that? How is that supposed to work? What do you think will happen a a result? Instead, I get people like you.
Huh, you seem to have a lot of issues with a lot of people on this forum... curious... perhaps telling even.
See what I mean, WISHY?
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Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake
"The messy American environment, where most people don't agree, is perfect for people like me. I CAN DO AS I PLEASE." - SECOND
America is an oligarchy http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876 .
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Wednesday, April 17, 2019 8:03 PM
So Captain Crunch is put on ignore for the remainder of this thread. Anybody else who wants to have a legitimate conversation about UBI that doesn't involve inter-sectional politics or personal attacks thrown my way, please continue.
Do Right, Be Right. :)
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Wednesday, April 17, 2019 8:19 PM
Quote:But that's not MY main arguemtn. I have several, which I will post, again.
The main argument I'm hearing in this thread is that most people would choose not to work if they got a free $1,000 per month.
Quote:Me too, so let's not discuss that.
Whether the argument is that most people could somehow afford to live off of only that when there are zero other social safety nets, or that most people are predisposed to not work, I find these arguments ridiculous.
Quote:Yes, the "law of unintended consequences" at work. Generally, if you want to promote a particular behavior, you reward it, so if you "reward" poverty with "assistance" you will promote dependence.
My main argument in favor of the UBI is that it will replace other forms of social safety nets that exist that actively dis-incentivize people to work, and also promote bad and self destructive behaviors (ie: having too many kids, sitting around doing nothing which often leads to substance abuse, easy credit for everybody that allows them to enslave themselves perpetually to the system, etc.)
Quote:What about Federal unemployment insurance? During the last downturn, when many people lost their jobs, unemployment saved a lot of people. I bring this up because "not working" isn't always an individual choice, sometimes people can't find jobs. Federal unemployment has an individual funding stream.
I also feel that people aren't considering the other things that I am saying would be necessary to happen in order for the UBI to be feesable and even worthwhile to pursue.
Maybe I should summarize these things here again?
1. EIC (Earned Income Credit), TANF (free money for non-working parents), SNAP (Food Stamps), Energy Assistance are all eliminated.
Quote:There ARE steps to remove people who don't belong. People are re-evaluated every five to seven years, or more often if "they" feel that the recipient's condition may improve.
2. Social Security for truly disabled adults is left intact, although there should be steps taken to remove people who don't belong on it.
Quote:I suggested coordinating Social Security with UBI, or simply making people receiving Social Security ineligible for UBI.
3. Given that all adults would get $1,000/mo. UBI, Social SecurityMedicare for the elderly needs to be revised. This is an entirely different topic that I welcome discussion on because I don't have all the answers. I'm NOT suggesting that it should be eliminated.
Quote:Removing the limit on Social Security is estimated to collect and extra $100 billion per year.
4. Limits on Social Security/Medicare/UBI taxes on income should be removed completely, in leiu most other higher tax proposals on high earners.
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/economy/what-impact-would-eliminating
THERE IS NO UPPER WAGE LIMIT FOR MEDICARE TAXES. In fact, currently employers are mandated to charge EXTRA on incomes over $200,000, so no additional income would arise from Medicare taxes.
https://www.irs.gov/taxtopics/tc751
There is currently no UBI tax, and its amount would have to be calculated.
Quote:Short-term capital gains (I found out) are already taxed, and they're taxed as "ordinary income". Since most people who claim short-term capital gains are probably high income earners (somewhere above a 12% tax bracket) it's likely that taxing short-term capital gains at Social Security and Medicare tax rates would lead to a REUCTION in taxes, not an increase. UBI taxes? TBD.
5. Social Security/Medicare/UBI taxes should also be added to Capitol Gains after a high enough yearly amount that does not hurt the middle-class investors.
Quote:
4. Credit cards are revoked for anybody not working for more than a 3 month period, and they are unable to acquire another one unless they have been working at least a part time job for a full year. Credit limits would be reasonable based off of their Income+UBNOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Wednesday, April 17, 2019 8:48 PM
Some places have linked eligibility for Government Handouts to regular drug testing. Even in places with legalized pot.
I haven't heard 6ix object to UBI being issued only to peeps who always pass their drug tests. That would save the UBI about 1/3 of its spending.
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Wednesday, April 17, 2019 9:07 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
UBI isn't either of my priorities. I haven't thought about it much, so I don't have much to say.
But Jack, you're not a good example of how UBI would or wouldn't work because: you're a 40 year old childless single male outright homeowner. You're a serious deviation from the vast majority. Most people are supporting a spouse and / or (a) child(ren) and / or a mortgage or rent and / or maybe even (a) parent(s). And a significant fraction of the population are beyond normal working age.
So I think I would learn more from people discussing the topic from a more representative perspective, with a higher budgetary demand.
But in a way, you might think of me as an example of the non-working (retired). Maybe ask me in 2 years when I've gotten a lot more 'idle' time under my belt, but at the moment I have no problem not having a 'job' to do.
Well... yes and no.
The main argument I'm hearing in this thread is that most people would choose not to work if they got a free $1,000 per month.
Whether the argument is that most people could somehow afford to live off of only that when there are zero other social safety nets, or that most people are predisposed to not work, I find these arguments ridiculous.
But you are right. I'm not a good example of why it would work. I've said so many times in this thread that I'm an extreme outlier, and that I fully recognize that.
My main argument in favor of the UBI is that it will replace other forms of social safety nets that exist that actively dis-incentivize people to work, and also promote bad and self destructive behaviors (ie: having too many kids, sitting around doing nothing which often leads to substance abuse, easy credit for everybody that allows them to enslave themselves perpetually to the system, etc.)
I feel this argument is being derailed intentionally by people here from all sides.
I also feel that people aren't considering the other things that I am saying would be necessary to happen in order for the UBI to be feesable and even worthwhile to pursue.
Maybe I should summarize these things here again?
1. EIC (Earned Income Credit), TANF (free money for non-working parents), SNAP (Food Stamps), Energy Assistance are all eliminated.
2. Social Security for truly disabled adults is left intact, although there should be steps taken to remove people who don't belong on it.
3. Given that all adults would get $1,000/mo. UBI, Social SecurityMedicare for the elderly needs to be revised. This is an entirely different topic that I welcome discussion on because I don't have all the answers. I'm NOT suggesting that it should be eliminated.
4. Limits on Social Security/Medicare/UBI taxes on income should be removed completely, in leiu most other higher tax proposals on high earners.
5. Social Security/Medicare/UBI taxes should also be added to Capitol Gains after a high enough yearly amount that does not hurt the middle-class investors.
4. Credit cards are revoked for anybody not working for more than a 3 month period, and they are unable to acquire another one unless they have been working at least a part time job for a full year. Credit limits would be reasonable based off of their Income+UBI. (Any existing debt, meanwhile, is not forgiven. Bankruptcy options are eliminated entirely.)
5. Military budget reduced significantly (down to pre-911 levels) would fund anywhere from a quarter of this to half of it.
6. Employers wouldn't have as much leverage to abuse their lowest earning work force.
7. A good chunk of the "NEEDs" could be taken care of for most people under this plan, and for those maxing out things like EIC and food stamps, it would be about a wash. If you want the "WANTs", get a job.
8. Most people will choose to work, even the very small amount of people who actually wouldn't need to. Reasons range frNOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Wednesday, April 17, 2019 9:13 PM
First off, let me just throw out there that the quote system here is rediculously outdated and it is a chore to try to keep these broken down reply threads going. 
Quote:
The main argument I'm hearing in this thread is that most people would choose not to work if they got a free $1,000 per month.
Quote:
But that's not MY main arguemtn. I have several, which I will post, again.
Okay.
Quote:
Whether the argument is that most people could somehow afford to live off of only that when there are zero other social safety nets, or that most people are predisposed to not work, I find these arguments ridiculous.
Quote:
Me too, so lest's not discuss that.
Okay.
Quote:
My main argument in favor of the UBI is that it will replace other forms of social safety nets that exist that actively dis-incentivize people to work, and also promote bad and self destructive behaviors (ie: having too many kids, sitting around doing nothing which often leads to substance abuse, easy credit for everybody that allows them to enslave themselves perpetually to the system, etc.)
Quote:
Yes, the "law of unintended consequences" at work. Generally, if you want to promote a particular behavior, you reward it, so if you "reward" poverty with "assistance" you will promote poverty.
Can we agree on a few things here first? These are fundamental arguments in favor of the UBI that are necessary to be agreed upon or else the UBI simply doesn't even merit any further discussion.
1. The UBI would not be poverty assistance, since everybody in the country no matter their income would receive it.
2. Existing forms of poverty assistance that I'm speaking of eliminating and replacing with the UBI reward bad behavior and promote poverty.
Quote:
I also feel that people aren't considering the other things that I am saying would be necessary to happen in order for the UBI to be feesable and even worthwhile to pursue.
Maybe I should summarize these things here again?
1. EIC (Earned Income Credit), TANF (free money for non-working parents), SNAP (Food Stamps), Energy Assistance are all eliminated.
Quote:
What about Federal unemployment insurance? During the last downturn, when many people lost their jobs, unemployment saved a lot of people. I bring this up because "not working" isn't always an individual choice, sometimes people can't find jobs.
I'm open to discussing this further. Technically, part of your income wages go to "unemployment insurance". I don't know the ins and outs of how that system works, so it's up for debate if that's just another ponzi scheme or if it can be considered a genuinely compartmentalized and self-sustaining program or not.
Quote:
2. Social Security for truly disabled adults is left intact, although there should be steps taken to remove people who don't belong on it.
Quote:
There ARE steps to remove people who don't belong. People are re-evaluated every fix to seven years, or more often if "they" feel that the recipient's condition may improve.
If they're anything like the programs I have been on in the past (food stamps, Obamacare, etc.), the checks are leaving a lot to be desired. Indiana specifically has made new checks and requirements that I agree with 100% even though they preclude me from most of these programs.
I don't think anyone would genuinely argue with me that there are people who are taking advantage of this system though.
This may be moot, however, if there is a reduction of benefits across the board when everyone gets the UBI. It's my personal belief that really the only ones that should be receiving the full benefit are the individuals who are practically vegetables and are unable to wipe their own asses. I'm talking about the people who not only can't work, but end up putting a life-altering burden on any loved ones that need t
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Wednesday, April 17, 2019 9:22 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
Some places have linked eligibility for Government Handouts to regular drug testing. Even in places with legalized pot.
I haven't heard 6ix object to UBI being issued only to peeps who always pass their drug tests. That would save the UBI about 1/3 of its spending.
I would never argue this, unless pot was excluded from the testing.
Current drug tests are all but worthless. You could go on a cocaine bender on a Friday night and pass a drug test Monday morning. Same with Meth, Heroin and a plethora of other hard-core, soul stealing drugs.
I would agree to the withholding of UBI benefits for anybody with hard core drugs in their system if there was a legitimate test put in place that could test for these substances after you have peed them out of your system.
Do Right, Be Right. :)
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Wednesday, April 17, 2019 10:42 PM
Quote:If I understand correctly, hair sample drug testing can show pot use for the time it took your hair to grow - so 3 months to a year or more. Or else everybody would know that the Potheads are the shaved heads.
Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:Quote:
Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:
Some places have linked eligibility for Government Handouts to regular drug testing. Even in places with legalized pot.
I haven't heard 6ix object to UBI being issued only to peeps who always pass their drug tests. That would save the UBI about 1/3 of its spending.
I would never argue this, unless pot was excluded from the testing.
Current drug tests are all but worthless. You could go on a cocaine bender on a Friday night and pass a drug test Monday morning. Same with Meth, Heroin and a plethora of other hard-core, soul stealing drugs.
I would agree to the withholding of UBI benefits for anybody with hard core drugs in their system if there was a legitimate test put in place that could test for these substances after you have peed them out of your system.
Do Right, Be Right. :)
Not sure how well hair holds historical record of use of other drugs.
But how many users of other drugs DO NOT use pot?
Regarding the use of $1,000 as the UBI handout, let's also sort out the numbers if the handout was $500 instead. That would give a decent view of how the numbers would shake out, and how other numbers would trend in the UBI model.
Also, I thought you guys had stated the UBI would be untaxed. Now you're changing the entire playing field?
Now you want to Tax people to produce Revenues into a turnstile to be spent as UBI? You Government Spendaholics are insane.
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