Real World Event Discussions
Dems, Dem-lites and Independents, who ya backing at this point and why?
POSTED BY: WISHIMAY
UPDATED: Monday, June 3, 2024 14:53
VIEWED: 19566
PAGE 16 of 24
Wednesday, April 17, 2019 4:03 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by WISHIMAY:Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
WISHY: If you really think that you don't have any say in anything, then just STFU and stay home and don't bother to vote.
Thanks, I don't anyway. But I like to play the "who could win if this country WASN'T run by a shadow government". There is too much money and other things at stake to just hand over power. It's all a puppet show.
I like to play it too. That's why I like to discuss Big Ideas: Why society is like an organism. The limits of measuring everything against "efficiency". What are America's (long term) interests?
"Thinking" is free ... or at least, it should be. It doesn't cost you any money. It doesn't need to be practical. It doesn't even need to be real. It doesn't put you at risk of anything.
What it DOES is inform your "practical" self of possible problems and possible solutions.
So, why limit yourself to centrist candidates with establishment ideas? Isn't it better to think, and think deeply, about the origins of our problems, and to outline the limits of your ideas, and "blue sky" some thoughts on potential solutions?
-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake
"The messy American environment, where most people don't agree, is perfect for people like me. I CAN DO AS I PLEASE." - SECOND
America is an oligarchy http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876 .
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Wednesday, April 17, 2019 10:23 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
I like to play it too. That's why I like to discuss...
No, it's more than clear that you "discuss" things because you are only wanting people to think like YOU. That only YOUR topics are important. Your topics are THE MOST IMPORTANT THING EVER AND THEY ARE THE ONLY ONES THAT CAN BE DISCUSSED AT ALL TIMES.
See what you look like???Your tactics are some of the most manipulative I've ever seen, and I have a Bi-polar Monster-in-law. I would pay money to get the two of you together in a room.
I think it could open a vortex of emotional vampirism that could lead to the destruction of the space-time continuum.
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Wednesday, April 17, 2019 10:54 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by captaincrunch:Quote:
Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:Quote:
Easy. A lot of people won't work if they don't have to, and they will sacrifice a sh*t ton of creature comforts to own their own time.
Prove it.
You
Are we just going to keep going around in circles here then?
We've already covered this. I am a special case. The $800 per month I don't have to spend on rent or mortgage allows me to do what I do on what roughly equates to $1,000 per month after taxes, without the need of a roommate.
Hardly anybody in the country that isn't retired already owns their own home. It's virtually undoutable that anybody that does would not sit around doing nothing.
Using me as a barometer for this is not good metrics.
Although, I will say I am a good example of the non-economic reasons you should work, or at least do something productive with your life when you don't really have to...
I sat around doing almost nothing for 2 1/2 years straight, drinking 5 out of 7 days on average every week, sometimes more than 30 cheap beers in a session. The small amount of time I wasn't inebriated was just my "recovery" time in between either spent sleeping or watching Netflix.
I hated myself, and I was destroying myself.
Granted, getting a job wasn't what got me sober, but I had to obsessively delve into old projects of mine for months before I felt like I didn't need to go out and buy more alcohol. It was nearly a full year of sobriety before I even had applied for another job.
Without being a religious type, I can't argue that work is good for the soul. It's good to have structure and to have goals and accomplishments, however small they might be. It helps break up the days so you don't just waste 3 years doing the same thing every day and look back and wonder where the last 3 years had gone.
Let's put aside the argument of who could and couldn't make it off of only $1,000 per month for a moment and ask the question "why do YOU feel that anybody who had enough money to live comfortably would choose not to work?"
I think you're projecting.
I've spent 6 of my working years not doing any work. I can tell you from experience that choosing not to work when I didn't need to is the worst decision of my life, and was often the catalyst for many other terrible decisions I have made.
Do Right, Be Right. :)
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Wednesday, April 17, 2019 11:18 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:
"why do YOU feel that anybody who had enough money to live comfortably would choose not to work?"
I've spent 6 of my working years not doing any work. I can tell you from experience that choosing not to work when I didn't need to is the worst decision of my life
I can answer that one....
Because working just about ANY job as one of the plebs in this country absolutely BLOWS. Every job hubbs has had he's hated within two years of starting it.
A quarter of people in a group work setting don't pull their weight or have health issues and are no longer capable but still manage to stay on long past when they should've. You end up holding up THEIR end of the job, every time.
Then a quarter of the people are pure and simple asshats, or narcissists, or psychopaths that making dealing with them soul destroying.
Then there's a work week that isn't five days and hasn't been for a while now. A great many people work 6 days a week/10-12 hr days and can't afford to take off vacation days. You NEVER get enough rest.
Then you have corporations that push whole novels full of bullshit like calling an employee a "member" or any one of a number of humiliating or belittling jargon that they know is meaningless.
Then realize after taxes and healthcare deductions you will probably NEVER retire...
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Wednesday, April 17, 2019 11:36 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by WISHIMAY:Quote:
Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:
"why do YOU feel that anybody who had enough money to live comfortably would choose not to work?"
I've spent 6 of my working years not doing any work. I can tell you from experience that choosing not to work when I didn't need to is the worst decision of my life
I can answer that one....
Because working just about ANY job as one of the plebs in this country absolutely BLOWS. Every job hubbs has had he's hated within two years of starting it.
A quarter of people in a group work setting don't pull their weight or have health issues and are no longer capable but still manage to stay on long past when they should've. You end up holding up THEIR end of the job, every time.
Then a quarter of the people are pure and simple asshats, or narcissists, or psychopaths that making dealing with them soul destroying.
Then there's a work week that isn't five days and hasn't been for a while now. A great many people work 6 days a week/10-12 hr days and can't afford to take off vacation days. You NEVER get enough rest.
Then you have corporations that push whole novels full of bullshit like calling an employee a "member" or any one of a number of humiliating or belittling jargon that they know is meaningless.
Then realize after taxes and healthcare deductions you will probably NEVER retire...
Well... all true.
But that's working full time at a job you hate because you HAVE to work full time at a job you hate.
Even part time retail, I get that. The management at my store are largely useless. I was written up for insubordination with my first overnight manager. She was fired a few months later because her terrible family life and her own alcoholism got in the way of work and she had a few no-call, no-shows. I've outlasted 4 overnight managers since I've been there, and now my store manager took a 3 month "stress leave" and abandoned everybody else because she couldn't take the heat now that the Six-Sigma men in black have come knocking.
I honestly thought I had it all figured out. I actually LOVE my job now. I get a great workout, nobody ever bothers me or asks what I'm doing (or tells me what to do), and they're all smiles when they see me coming in. That's all going away soon when the night shift is removed and I have to deal with the new hard-ass store manager (and "service" customers for half of my shift and try not to get myself fired when I have to deal with a shitty one). I'm going to hang around a bit and see if I can build up something similar to what I had done for myself again, but the beauty of working a shitty part time job with no insurance and low pay is that it's not exactly hard to jump ship and go somewhere else if I don't feel like putting up with the bullshit.
The only way you're really going to work a job these days where you're not shit on at any level is if you go into business for yourself, and that's also a huge trade off because now you're your own boss and accountant and all the other things you can take for granted and not worry about when you are on somebody else's payroll.
This is just another argument for the UBI, the way I look at it. In my unique position, I could (and would) buy my own health insurance with it. Then I'd be completely free to keep on living the way I do, working part-time and only sacrificing 40% of my days without that hole of no insurance always nagging at the back of my mind. I would absolutely hate my job right now if I had to work full time for what I make.
For most others that were working part time and had a rent and a mortgage, they would also be able to purchase their own health insurance while working part time, but they'd have to make some sacrifices to do it. But the option would be there.
I dunno. I doubt it would ever happen in our lifetime. Not onl
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Wednesday, April 17, 2019 12:57 PM
UBI isn't either of my priorities. I haven't thought about it much, so I don't have much to say.
But Jack, you're not a good example of how UBI would or wouldn't work because: you're a 40 year old childless single male outright homeowner. You're a serious deviation from the vast majority. Most people are supporting a spouse and / or (a) child(ren) and / or a mortgage or rent and / or maybe even (a) parent(s). And a significant fraction of the population are beyond normal working age and don't have the oomph it takes to go from shitty job to shitty job.
So I think I would learn more from people discussing the topic from a more representative perspective, with either a higher budgetary demand, or less ability to work (age, illness) to make up the UBI shortfall. And I think you've spent your whole discussion talking about UBI and you, you, and you.
In a way, you might think of me as an example of the non-working (retired). Maybe ask me in 2 years when I've gotten a lot more 'idle' time under my belt, but at the moment I have no problem not having a 'job' to do.
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Wednesday, April 17, 2019 1:26 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by rue:
UBI isn't either of my priorities. I haven't thought about it much, so I don't have much to say.
But Jack, you're not a good example of how UBI would or wouldn't work because: you're a 40 year old childless single male outright homeowner. You're a serious deviation from the vast majority. Most people are supporting a spouse and / or (a) child(ren) and / or a mortgage or rent and / or maybe even (a) parent(s). And a significant fraction of the population are beyond normal working age.
So I think I would learn more from people discussing the topic from a more representative perspective, with a higher budgetary demand.
But in a way, you might think of me as an example of the non-working (retired). Maybe ask me in 2 years when I've gotten a lot more 'idle' time under my belt, but at the moment I have no problem not having a 'job' to do.
Well... yes and no.
The main argument I'm hearing in this thread is that most people would choose not to work if they got a free $1,000 per month.
Whether the argument is that most people could somehow afford to live off of only that when there are zero other social safety nets, or that most people are predisposed to not work, I find these arguments ridiculous.
But you are right. I'm not a good example of why it would work. I've said so many times in this thread that I'm an extreme outlier, and that I fully recognize that.
My main argument in favor of the UBI is that it will replace other forms of social safety nets that exist that actively dis-incentivize people to work, and also promote bad and self destructive behaviors (ie: having too many kids, sitting around doing nothing which often leads to substance abuse, easy credit for everybody that allows them to enslave themselves perpetually to the system, etc.)
I feel this argument is being derailed intentionally by people here from all sides.
I also feel that people aren't considering the other things that I am saying would be necessary to happen in order for the UBI to be feesable and even worthwhile to pursue.
Maybe I should summarize these things here again?
1. EIC (Earned Income Credit), TANF (free money for non-working parents), SNAP (Food Stamps), Energy Assistance are all eliminated.
2. Social Security for truly disabled adults is left intact, although there should be steps taken to remove people who don't belong on it.
3. Given that all adults would get $1,000/mo. UBI, Social SecurityMedicare for the elderly needs to be revised. This is an entirely different topic that I welcome discussion on because I don't have all the answers. I'm NOT suggesting that it should be eliminated.
4. Limits on Social Security/Medicare/UBI taxes on income should be removed completely, in leiu most other higher tax proposals on high earners.
5. Social Security/Medicare/UBI taxes should also be added to Capitol Gains after a high enough yearly amount that does not hurt the middle-class investors.
4. Credit cards are revoked for anybody not working for more than a 3 month period, and they are unable to acquire another one unless they have been working at least a part time job for a full year. Credit limits would be reasonable based off of their Income+UBI. (Any existing debt, meanwhile, is not forgiven. Bankruptcy options are eliminated entirely.)
5. Military budget reduced significantly (down to pre-911 levels) would fund anywhere from a quarter of this to half of it.
6. Employers wouldn't have as much leverage to abuse their lowest earning work force.
7. A good chunk of the "NEEDs" could be taken care of for most people under this plan, and for those maxing out things like EIC and food stamps, it would be about a wash. If you want the "WANTs", get a job.
8. Most people will choose to work, even the very small amount of people who actually wouldn't need to. Reasons range from boredom to a need for some sort
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Wednesday, April 17, 2019 1:48 PM
Quote:Oh, bullshit, WISHY.
No, it's more than clear that you "discuss" things because you are only wanting people to think like YOU. That only YOUR topics are important. Your topics are THE MOST IMPORTANT THING EVER AND THEY ARE THE ONLY ONES THAT CAN BE DISCUSSED AT ALL TIMES. See what you look like???
The reason why I can't have a decent discussion WITH YOU and half of the people on this board is because most of you don't know how to THINK, much less discuss!
I propose an idea and what do I get?
REAVERBOT and THUGR name-calling, SECOND holding an endless one-sided rant about Trump, YOU endlessly harping about why I should never post ... anything that I post, GSTRING weaseling, ... lies about what I posted, who I am and what I "really" mean ...
I was willing to discuss Booker. He's not my favorite candidate but I would have been happy to bird-dog what you knew of him, what "I" knew of him, what that meant for his overall approach and whether or not there was merit in the ideas that I originally disagreed with.
I learned about Buttigieg. Interesting dude, I think his view of the Presidency ... where politicians come together for the sake of good government ... is a little naive ... and so far I don't know how he feels about issues that are important to me, but hey. I'm willing to discuss.
I think I took the idea of UBI about as far as it could go. I compared its cost to the total budget, its payouts compared to Social Security, it's probable effects on balance of trade and inflation, and so far it doesn't sound workable. But if someone comes up with some back-of-the envelope calcs of taxation changes that are supposed to come with it, then I'll have another look at it.
What I find is that some people have a few pretty shallow ideas about what they think our problems are and how they think they should be solved, but I never even get to ask people ... Why do you think that? How is that supposed to work? What do you think will happen a a result? Instead, I get people like you.
-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake
"The messy American environment, where most people don't agree, is perfect for people like me. I CAN DO AS I PLEASE." - SECOND
America is an oligarchy http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876 .
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Wednesday, April 17, 2019 3:25 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by 6IXSTRINGJACK:
I've spent 6 of my working years not doing any work.
You crack me up - you must be a comedian. Seriously. You are incapable of learning a single thing. You aren't that special, bra. Why did you spend 6 years not working? Like Wish said, like you go bleating on about your current sh*t job - working a job sucks. You even answered your own question, "I've spent 6 of my working years not doing any work." You can't even agree with yourself - what a freaking doorknob.
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Wednesday, April 17, 2019 3:26 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:Quote:Oh, bullshit, WISHY.
No, it's more than clear that you "discuss" things because you are only wanting people to think like YOU. That only YOUR topics are important. Your topics are THE MOST IMPORTANT THING EVER AND THEY ARE THE ONLY ONES THAT CAN BE DISCUSSED AT ALL TIMES. See what you look like???
The reason why I can't have a decent discussion WITH YOU and half of the people on this board is because most of you don't know how to THINK, much less discuss!
I propose an idea and what do I get?
REAVERBOT and THUGR name-calling, SECOND holding an endless one-sided rant about Trump, YOU endlessly harping about why I should never post ... anything that I post, GSTRING weaseling, ... lies about what I posted, who I am and what I "really" mean ...
I was willing to discuss Booker. He's not my favorite candidate but I would have been happy to bird-dog what you knew of him, what "I" knew of him, what that meant for his overall approach and whether or not there was merit in the ideas that I originally disagreed with.
I learned about Buttigieg. Interesting dude, I think his view of the Presidency ... where politicians come together for the sake of good government ... is a little naive ... and so far I don't know how he feels about issues that are important to me, but hey. I'm willing to discuss.
I think I took the idea of UBI about as far as it could go. I compared its cost to the total budget, its payouts compared to Social Security, it's probable effects on balance of trade and inflation, and so far it doesn't sound workable. But if someone comes up with some back-of-the envelope calcs of taxation changes that are supposed to come with it, then I'll have another look at it.
What I find is that some people have a few pretty shallow ideas about what they think our problems are and how they think they should be solved, but I never even get to ask people ... Why do you think that? How is that supposed to work? What do you think will happen a a result? Instead, I get people like you.
Huh, you seem to have a lot of issues with a lot of people on this forum... curious... perhaps telling even.
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