A thread for Democrats Only

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UPDATED: Sunday, September 6, 2026 15:36
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SECOND

Saturday, August 4, 2018 4:17 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Oh yeah, SECOND ... one MORE point about that book you seem so enamored of ...

Quote:
“Republicans in the highest income quintile, those making more than $100,000 per year, were actually slightly less satisfied than Democrats in the lowest income quintile, those making less than $20,000 per year.”
Not only did they fail to as WHY high-income Republicans were slightly less satisfied than low-income Democrats (which the authors then immediately and- apparently without evidence- tag to "racism") they failed to make another fundamental comparison: How did high-income DEMOCRAT satisfaction compare to low-income Democrat satisfaction?

Either the book is completely fucked, or the book review is. In any case, sorry I missed this obvious flaw the first time around.

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

"The messy American environment, where most people don't agree, is perfect for people like me. I CAN DO AS I PLEASE." - SECOND

The full quote goes something like this:
This is unnerving data, as we tend to imagine the economy as a rare subject on which objective facts, rather than group conflicts, drive opinions. Sadly, no. Sides, Tesler, and Vavreck analyzed polling on economic sentiment and found that “Republicans in the highest income quintile, those making more than $100,000 per year, were actually slightly less satisfied than Democrats in the lowest income quintile, those making less than $20,000 per year.”

This was borne out in the election’s aftermath. Trump’s election led to a remarkable 80-point jump in economic confidence among Republicans, and a 37-point fall among Democrats.

There is even a graph that goes with it, but go here to see it:
www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/7/30/17505406/trump-obama-race-po
litics-immigration

The graph illustrates that political partisans are not sane about economy. When they are happy with their new Republican President, they think the economy is doing good. When sad, the economy is bad. I will give you hint about reality: the economy does NOT change as your mood changes. It is crazy for Republicans to think the economy changes based on the chemical imbalances inside Republicans’ heads. The Democrats have a little of that craziness, too.

Signym plays the role of Bester and second’s role is Kaylee in the script for Out of Gas:

KAYLEE
Ain't nothing wrong with your grav boot. Grav boot's just fine.
(to Mal)
Hello.
She drops down again, out of view. Mal glances at Bester. Bester's a bit flustered.
BESTER
(to Mal)
She doesn't... that's not what...
(to Kaylee)
No it ain't!
KAYLEE
(reappearing)
Sure it is. Grav boot ain't your trouble. I seen the trouble plain as day when I was down there on my back before. Your reg couple's bad.
BESTER
(clueless)
The... red... what?
KAYLEE
Reg couple. Right here. See?
BESTER No.
KAYLEE This.
(then)
I'm pointin' right at it. She rolls her eyes, sighs, reaches in, breaks off a part of the engine.
BESTER Hey!
KAYLEE Here.

That scene ends with Bester/Signym being fired for incompetence, for not understanding even the simplest things, for not knowing you don't know what you are doing :

BESTER Mal. Whaddya need two mechanics for?
MAL I really don't.

If it was left to Bester, Serenity would never fly again, but Mal fixed Bester. Sadly, there is no Mal here at fireflyfans.net to fix Signym.

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

6IXSTRINGJACK

Saturday, August 4, 2018 6:41 AM

My mood is wonderful compared to where I was 2 years ago, Second.

I said the economy and job outlook in America was terrible back then, and I still say it is now.

I'm going to go ahead and attribute my sanity to the fact that I'm neither a Republican or a Democrat, pat myself on the back, and get ready for my low income part time job that I actually enjoy more than almost every job I've ever had in the past.

Do Right, Be Right. :)

SIGNYM

Saturday, August 4, 2018 6:59 AM

SECOND, I read the article. It's just more identity politics, as far as I can tell. The relevant part of the article .... which you seem to want me to focus on, is this

Quote:
The best evidence we have suggests this gets the relationship largely backward. In their forthcoming book Identity Crisis: The 2016 Presidential Campaign and the Battle for the Meaning of America, political scientists John Sides, Michael Tesler, and Lynn Vavreck analyze reams of data and show that racial resentment activated economic anxiety, rather than the other way around:

Before Obama’s presidency, how Americans felt about black people did not much affect their perceptions of the economy. After Obama, this changed. In December 2007, racial resentment — which captures whether Americans think deficiencies in black culture are the main reason for racial inequality — was not related to whites’ perceptions of whether the economy was getting better or worse, after accounting for partisanship and ideology. But when these exact same people were re-interviewed in July 2012, racial resentment was a powerful predictor of economic perceptions: the greater someone’s level of racial resentment, the worse they believed the economy was doing.

What the authors found was (they said) a CORRELATION. "racial resentment = economic dissatisfaction"

But SOMETHING HAPPENED between 2007 (when people were first interviewed) and 2012, when they were re-interviewed. What was it?? Think hard, I know you can figure it out.

And, as we all know ... correlation is not causation.

There are a whole bunch of factors that might be tied together that lump "racial resentment" in with "economic dissatisfaction". For example, it's possible that poor rural whites or whites in manufacturing jobs ... who might be somewhat more racist than average, were hit PARTICULARLY hard by the Great Collapse.

Now, what the authors needed to do ... and perhaps they did and the article never mentions is ... is what is called a "multivariate analysis" in which the effect of different factors are teased out from each other.

There really wasn't enough detail in the article to be supportive of the points the author was making; it just seemed like so much blah-blah-blah of regurgitated suppositions. Maybe there's a real point in there somewhere but I couldn't find it. It seemed like the intent of the article was to make white people feel guilty for being white, or something.

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

"The messy American environment, where most people don't agree, is perfect for people like me. I CAN DO AS I PLEASE." - SECOND

America is an oligarchy http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876

REAVERFAN

Saturday, August 4, 2018 11:33 AM

Thanks, SECOND, for talking about real things while the Russian trolls deflect.

Someone has to do it. I'm just too tired, most of the time.

SECOND

Saturday, August 4, 2018 5:43 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
SECOND, I read the article. It's just more identity politics, as far as I can tell. The relevant part of the article .... which you seem to want me to focus on, is this

Quote:
The best evidence we have suggests this gets the relationship largely backward. In their forthcoming book Identity Crisis: The 2016 Presidential Campaign and the Battle for the Meaning of America, political scientists John Sides, Michael Tesler, and Lynn Vavreck analyze reams of data and show that racial resentment activated economic anxiety, rather than the other way around:

Before Obama’s presidency, how Americans felt about black people did not much affect their perceptions of the economy. After Obama, this changed. In December 2007, racial resentment — which captures whether Americans think deficiencies in black culture are the main reason for racial inequality — was not related to whites’ perceptions of whether the economy was getting better or worse, after accounting for partisanship and ideology. But when these exact same people were re-interviewed in July 2012, racial resentment was a powerful predictor of economic perceptions: the greater someone’s level of racial resentment, the worse they believed the economy was doing.

What the authors found was (they said) a CORRELATION. "racial resentment = economic dissatisfaction"

But SOMETHING HAPPENED between 2007 (when people were first interviewed) and 2012, when they were re-interviewed. What was it?? Think hard, I know you can figure it out.

And, as we all know ... correlation is not causation.

There are a whole bunch of factors that might be tied together that lump "racial resentment" in with "economic dissatisfaction". For example, it's possible that poor rural whites or whites in manufacturing jobs ... who might be somewhat more racist than average, were hit PARTICULARLY hard by the Great Collapse.

Now, what the authors needed to do ... and perhaps they did and the article never mentions is ... is what is called a "multivariate analysis" in which the effect of different factors are teased out from each other.

There really wasn't enough detail in the article to be supportive of the points the author was making; it just seemed like so much blah-blah-blah of regurgitated suppositions. Maybe there's a real point in there somewhere but I couldn't find it. It seemed like the intent of the article was to make white people feel guilty for being white, or something.

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

"The messy American environment, where most people don't agree, is perfect for people like me. I CAN DO AS I PLEASE." - SECOND

America is an oligarchy http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876

Signym, you are bullshiting at great length about what you don't comprehend. You definitely are Bester.

Signym, for a reason I quoted from the Firefly script “Out of Gas” about Mal meeting Kaylee for the first time and replacing Bester. Our real world is afflicted with people like semi-competent Bester (or Signym). Even Mal was fooled into believing Bester was a genius mechanic. Bester believed in himself, but he could not get Serenity to fly.

Bester and Kaylee argued about what was wrong with Serenity. If Kaylee’s correct diagnosis and repair had required hours of work, that argument would have gone on indefinitely, with Bester blocking Kaylee, just exactly like arguments do here at fireflyfan.net or in our world. Since it was a TV show, in 30 seconds Kaylee got Serenity running again, but only because Mal helped by stopping Bester from interfering.

There will be Bester vs Kaylee arguments until the end of time and Mal won’t intuitively know who is the better mechanic for his ship. In the same episode, there was a problem even Kaylee couldn’t fix, disappointing Mal. In American politics there might

SIGNYM

Saturday, August 4, 2018 8:51 PM

Quote:
Signym, you are bullshiting at great length about what you don't comprehend. You definitely are Bester.

Uh huh.

The article makes a number of claims

Quote:
This is the core cleavage of our politics, and it reflects the fundamental reality of our era: America is changing, and fast

only if you ASSUME that people's politics are based on their skin color. As if we don't ALL have an interest in meaningful jobs at living wages, safe homes and neighborhoods, a durable economy sustainable into the future, a meritocracy for those who can work and support for those who can't ... this is just identity politics gone wild.

Quote:
I spent months talking with politicians, social psychologists, and political scientists about what happens in moments like this one, moments when a majority feels its dominance beginning to fail.

Well, "a majority" here ... no matter how defined ... doesn't HAVE dominance. YOU YOURSELF SAID that we live in an economy where the lords and lordlings have control. Painting "a majority" as having "dominance" is simply forwarding the myth that we have meaningful control over our collective future ... which we don't, and we WON'T, unless we can get off this identity politics track and pay attention to who's REALLY in control. This article is simply diverting attention from the people who have REAL dominance ... the 0.01%.

Quote:
Schiffhauer published a fascinating paper called “Racial attitudes in response to thoughts of White privilege.” They found that priming white college students to think about the concept of white privilege led them to express more racial resentment in subsequent surveys. The simplest way to activate someone’s identity is to threaten it, to tell them they don’t truly deserve what they have, to make them consider that it might be taken away.

The author ... who says "As we navigate these sensitivities, we can do so with more or less care" spends an ENTIRE ARTICLE winding up those very sensitivities through CONTINUED reference (directly and indirectly) to LOSS OF WHITE PRIVILEGE, which is destined to make many white readers feel threatened and uncomfortable.

The author's dedication to identity politics as a wedge to drive Americans further and further apart is right from YOUR playbook, SECOND. You're CONSTANTLY flogging identity politics here. You WANT people to be squabbling over trivialities.

That way, you can do as you please. You said so yourself.

And that was probably the most honest thing that you ever posted.

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

"The messy American environment, where most people don't agree, is perfect for people like me. I CAN DO AS I PLEASE." - SECOND

America is an oligarchy http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876

SIGNYM

Saturday, August 4, 2018 9:17 PM

I thought this was a particularly apt description of identity politics

Quote:
At the time of writing there are apparently over 70 different gender options in the West, not to mention numerous sexualities - the traditional LGBT acronym has thus far grown to LGBTQQIP2SAA. Adding race to the mix results in an even greater number of possible permutations or identities. Each subgroup has its own ideology. Precious time is spent fighting against those deemed less oppressed and telling them to ‘check their privilege’ as the ever-changing pecking order of the ‘Oppression Olympics’ plays out. The rules to this sport are as fluid as the identities taking part. One of the latest dilemmas affecting the identity politics movement is the issue of whether men transitioning to women deserve recognition and acceptance or 'whether trans women aren’t women and are apparently “raping” lesbians'.

The ideology of identity politics asserts that the straight white male is at the apex of the privilege pyramid, responsible for the oppression of all other groups. His original sin condemns him to everlasting shame. While it is true that straight white men (as a group) have faced less obstacles than females, non-straight men or ethnic minorities, the majority of straight white men, past and present, also struggle to survive from paycheck to paycheck and are not personally involved in the oppression of any other group. While most of the world’s wealthiest individuals are Caucasian males, millions of white men exist who are both poor and powerless

Yes, this really is a "divide and conquer" strategy by the elite. Now we can ALL squabble amongst ourselves as to who was the greater victim, and who should feel the most guilt. Does a gay male with AIDS, abused as a child by his mother belong on a higher rung of victim-hood than a Hispanic lesbian female with a supportive family?

I hope you can see how this train of thought devolves into meaninglessness.

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

"The messy American environment, where most people don't agree, is perfect for people like me. I CAN DO AS I PLEASE." - SECOND

America is an oligarchy http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876

THG

Sunday, August 5, 2018 1:51 AM

You're dealing with Q SECOND. Nothing but deniers of facts and promoters of conspiracies. Nuts and Russian trolls SECOND, nuts and Russian trolls.

T

SIGNYM

Sunday, August 5, 2018 12:33 PM

Quote:
You're dealing with Q SECOND

Oh, good grief.

Do you really think ANYone buys your tripe? I can't decide whether to feel annoyed or flattered, but either way, I'm not Q.

-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake

"The messy American environment, where most people don't agree, is perfect for people like me. I CAN DO AS I PLEASE." - SECOND

America is an oligarchy http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876

SECOND

Sunday, August 5, 2018 5:08 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by THG:
You're dealing with Q SECOND. Nothing but deniers of facts and promoters of conspiracies. Nuts and Russian trolls SECOND, nuts and Russian trolls.

T

Q, you say? I had to look that one up: 'We Are Q': New Conspiracy Cult That Sends Cryptic Clues To Save America

To believers, Q is a pseudonym for a well-placed U.S. government agent who is posting online distress messages and bits of intel, known as "bread crumbs," in an effort to save the country - and Trump - from hostile forces within the government.

More at www.ndtv.com/world-news/we-are-q-new-conspiracy-cult-that-sends-crypti
c-messages-to-save-america-1893816

I think Signym is more of a run-of-the-mill denialist: Denialism: what drives people to reject the truth

At root, denial and denialism are simply a subset of the many ways humans have developed to use language to deceive others and themselves. Denial can be as simple as refusing to accept that someone else is speaking truthfully.

There are multiple kinds of denialists: from those who are sceptical of all established knowledge, to those who challenge one type of knowledge; from those who actively contribute to the creation of denialist scholarship, to those who quietly consume it; from those who burn with certainty, to those who are privately sceptical about their scepticism. What they all have in common is a particular type of desire. This desire – for something not to be true – is the driver of denialism.

Denialism is more than just another manifestation of the humdrum intricacies of our deceptions and self-deceptions. It represents the transformation of the everyday practice of denial into a whole new way of seeing the world. Denial is furtive and routine; denialism is combative and extraordinary. Denial hides from old truth, denialism builds a new truth.

In democratic societies at least, denialism cannot be beaten legally, or through debunking, or through attempts to discredit its proponents. That’s because, for denialists, the existence of denialism is itself a triumph. Central to denialism is an argument that “the truth” has been suppressed by its enemies. To continue to exist is a heroic act, a victory for the truth only the denialist knows.

More at www.theguardian.com/news/2018/aug/03/denialism-what-drives-people-to-r
eject-the-truth

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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