And you thought OUR election was fun!!
POSTED BY: Geezer
UPDATED: Sunday, December 5, 2004 01:07
VIEWED: 8772
PAGE 1 of 7
Quote:
I'm true Ukraine head - Yushchenko
Viktor Yushchenko has called for a campaign of civil disobedience
Ukrainian opposition leader Viktor Yushchenko has declared himself president in front of his supporters as crowds rallied outside parliament.
Mr Yushchenko, who says the election was rigged against him, read the oath of office during a stormy session of parliament attended by opposition MPs.
As a mark of protest he put his hand on a Bible and stood at a window to address about 200,000 people outside...
... International observers have described Sunday's poll - a second round run-off - as seriously flawed, and the US and European Union are calling for an urgent review.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4035755.stm
Now that's a lot more dramatic than sending in a herd of lawyers. I guess we Americans just don't have that kind of flair.
"Keep the Shiny side up"
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It's funny that Ukrainians didn't accept a stolen election while Americans rolled over.
The exit polls, in both elections, show how lop-sided the final "fixed" votes were. What happens in the USA? ... nothing. In the Ukraine, the people demand thier nation be democratic.
Americans are a fearful people. A scared people.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ghoulman:
It's funny that Ukrainians didn't accept a stolen election while Americans rolled over.
The exit polls, in both elections, show how lop-sided the final "fixed" votes were. What happens in the USA? ... nothing. In the Ukraine, the people demand thier nation be democratic.
Americans are a fearful people. A scared people.
Hmmm..lets look at the differences noted by the OSCE about the American elections and those addressed about the Ukrainian elections:
Ukrainian elections:
http://www.osce.org/news/show_news.php?id=4547
Quote:
KYIV, 22 November 2004 - The second round of the presidential election in Ukraine on 21 November did not meet a considerable number of OSCE commitments, Council of Europe and other European standards for democratic elections. As in the first round, state executive authorities and the Central Election Commission displayed a lack of will to conduct a genuine democratic election process, concluded the International Election Observation Mission in a preliminary statement released today.
American elections:
http://www.osce.org/documents/odihr/2004/11/3779_en.pdf
Quote:
Allegations about voter disenfranchisement and so-called voter suppression were also
widely aired. It was claimed that such practices included non-processing of voter
registration applications, the improper removal of eligible voters from voter lists,
harassment and intimidation of voters.
While recognizing the seriousness of the above allegations, the EOM was not
provided with first-hand evidence to substantiate them or to demonstrate that such
practices were widespread or systematic.
Quote:
Election day was characterized by very high turnout, resulting in long queues and
pressure on poll workers at some polling stations. It seems likely that protracted
waiting periods may have deterred or prevented some voters from participating in the
election, particularly those who were working on 2 November and were not given
time off by their employers. The EOM commends both the patience of voters who
waited to cast their vote, in some cases for several hours, and the commitment of poll
workers under difficult conditions.
EOM observation reports indicated that the electoral process was orderly and
peaceful.
Ghoulman..if you could spend less time being an antagonist (a.k.a. Troll) with frivolous incendiary claims, it would be appreciated.
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I can only pass this on second-hand, but I heard a couple things about OUR election that greatly disturbed me. I will try to pass them on as accurately as I can remember.
The first is that the exit polls did not match actual tallies, but this happened ONLY IN CONTESTED STATES. There were 11 states in all, three (Ohio, Florida, Pennsylvania) were examined in detail by a UPenn statistician who found those exit poll particulars* accidentally left on a media website. (*N, variance, historical accuracy and so forth.) In all cases, the exits polls show Kery with higher votes than had been tabluated.
Given the possible error in both exit polls and tabulation, this prof calculated that the individual chances of each exit poll being wrong was on the order of about 1-3 in 1000, but that the chance of ALL three of them being wrong in the same direction was 1 in 250,000,000.
The second story I heard was that a citizen's group was interested in looking at the actual tabulated votes in a Florida county. After getting the run-around from county officials for a few days ("Oh, you wanted to see the ORIGINALS...?") they finally got to the warehouse where the rolls were kept. Making a long story short, they got to see some of the rolls that were presented as the actual tabulations (signed and dated), but found more (signed, dated) rolls in the trash that were the supposedly counting the same votes, but with big differences between the two final numbers. Ulitimately they were thrown out by the police for "trespass" (altho they had made an appointment and were there with county officials). This would pretty mcuh be "he said/ she said" if the citizens' group hadn't brought a videocam along and recorded most of the event.
I was ready to concede the election, but after hearing all this, I'm not sure Bush really won.
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The problem with stories that are "heard" is that they become more skewed, the more they are told. I'd be interested to see the actual story and see how the "Stories" were independently authenticated. Please don't misunderstand me.. I'm not accusing you of misconstruing information. I'm merely looking for some more solid info, other then some he said she said stories.
There are far too many people with an axe to grind for whatever reason..when that happens you have fabrications similar to the now infamous Rathergate.
If election fraud was that apparent, the media would be destroying Bush right now. It's pretty well known that alot of the media elite would give their eyeteeth and their children's first born to bury old GW as well as get their grubby corrupt lttle hands on a story of that value hehe. Personally, if the facts played out that fraud was committed.. I'd expect to see an ole Bush press conference, where he waves his hands in the air and says " I'm not a crook!" LOL
Also..the statistics seem very skewed. With only 3 states or 10 states for that matter..going from 1 in 3 to 1 in 250,000,000 seems out of line. Time to check with my local bean counter to see if thats even possible..
Links please..
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Oops. The stats were; For Ohio the chance was 1/1000, for Florida 2/1000 and for Penn 3/1000 (or something like that). For all to occur together in the same direction 1/250,000,000.
I'll see if I can find a source.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Connorflynn:
Ghoulman..if you could spend less time being an antagonist (a.k.a. Troll) with frivolous incendiary claims, it would be appreciated.
That's not the definition of a troll.
Connerflynn, I and many people are not buying the bullshit that the mainstream has sold to America. The election was stolen, it's rather obvious.
The fact that the Ukrainian people just showed the USA the difference is all I was pointing out.
Since you are ignorant...
TROLL
Usage of the word is various. In some usage, a troll is a communication such as a usenet post, and a troller is the author of such communication. In media where communication isn't discrete, a troll is the creator of such communication.
A troll is deliberately crafted to provoke others with the intention of wasting their time and energy. A troll is a time thief. To troll is to steal from people. That is what makes trolling heinous.
Trolls can be identified by their disengagement from a conversation or argument. They do not believe what they say, but merely say it for effect.
Trolls are motivated by a desire for attention by people and can't or won't acquire it in a productive manner.
Someone may be insufferable, infuriating, fanatical, and an ignorant idiot to boot without being a troll.
Also note that a troll isn't necessarily insulting, snide, or even impolite. Only the crudest, most obvious, forms of trolling can be identified so easily.
If you find yourself patiently explaining, at length and in great detail, some obscure point to someone who isn't even being polite to you, then you are probably being trolled.
So of course, I've wasted my time explaining basic reality yet again.
And this also points out that most of the posters here are trolls, not me Connerflynn. The fact that people feel the need to post link after link of usless info as if that's proof of some kind - that's trolling.
And guess what, you are the troll here.
I don't think you did it on purpose, your just doing what everyone else does here.
No matter how many times myself or one of the other few reasonable people here have been shown to be correct (about Saddam, WMDs, torture victems, Fallujah) you people still insist on trolling us.
Tired of being badgered by people who really should learn the difference between a troll and someone who actually give a rats ass.
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Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Oops. The stats were; For Ohio the chance was 1/1000, for Florida 2/1000 and for Penn 3/1000 (or something like that). For all to occur together in the same direction 1/250,000,000.
I'll see if I can find a source.
Interesting. I'd definitely be interested to see a source. Thanks.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ghoulman:
So of course, I've wasted my time explaining basic reality yet again.
And this also points out that most of the posters here are trolls, not me Connerflynn. The fact that people feel the need to post link after link of usless info as if that's proof of some kind - that's trolling.
And guess what, you are the troll here.
I don't think you did it on purpose, your just doing what everyone else does here.
No matter how many times myself or one of the other few reasonable people here have been shown to be correct (about Saddam, WMDs, torture victems, Fallujah) you people still insist on trolling us.
Tired of being badgered by people who really should learn the difference between a troll and someone who actually give a rats ass.
Dude..the very first thing you do when you post on this board is slam someone. Almost every single one of your posts calls someone a derogatory name or insults them in a childish fashion. Your whole purpose for existence on this board is to antagonize and stir people up. That is a Prime example of a troll. I'm not the first person to state the same about you. Nothing you have posted thus far has been constructive or insightful. It's all a bunch malignant hooey.
It's very difficult to take you seriously, because you just come across as abrasive and troll-like. With folks like Signym or Signamunki who share different political beliefs in some respects (personally I don't think we are that far apart really), I may not agree with everything they say, and may even get into heated discussion, but ultimately..I feel we do seem to share some constructive information and to some degree hold a decent discussion. I can't say the same about discussions with you. You premise everything with a disturbing comment, just take a look at the titles of your posts.
Some of my posts may become heated. However, I also try to post intelligently ,with sources where applicable.
If you're tired of people calling you a troll, then stop being one. It's simple as that.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ghoulman:
It's funny that Ukrainians didn't accept a stolen election while Americans rolled over.
The exit polls, in both elections, show how lop-sided the final "fixed" votes were. What happens in the USA? ... nothing. In the Ukraine, the people demand thier nation be democratic.
Americans are a fearful people. A scared people.
So come on down and protest in front of the White House. Save us from ourselves, Ghoul.
"Keep the Shiny side up"
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