Porton Down Scientists Under Extreme Pressure To Confirm Nerve Gas As Russian
POSTED BY: 1kiki
UPDATED: Thursday, October 4, 2018 19:32
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Quote:
https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-03-19/porton-down-scientists-under
-extreme-pressure-confirm-nerve-gas-russian
Porton Down Scientists Under Extreme Pressure To Confirm Nerve Gas As Russian
Authored by Craig Murray via The Strategic Culture Foundation,
I have now received confirmation from a well placed FCO source that Porton Down scientists are not able to identify the nerve gas as being of Russian manufacture, and have been resentful of the pressure being placed on them to do so.
Porton Down would only sign up to the formulation “of a type developed by Russia” after a rather difficult meeting where this was agreed as a compromise formulation.
The Russians were allegedly researching, in the “Novichok” programme a generation of nerve agents which could be produced from commercially available precursors such as insecticides and fertilisers. This substance is a “novichok” in that sense. It is of that type. Just as I am typing on a laptop of a type developed by the United States, though this one was made in China.
To anybody with a Whitehall background this has been obvious for several days.
The government has never said the nerve agent was made in Russia, or that it can only be made in Russia. The exact formulation “of a type developed by Russia” was used by Theresa May in parliament, used by the UK at the UN Security Council, used by Boris Johnson on the BBC yesterday and, most tellingly of all, “of a type developed by Russia” is the precise phrase used in the joint communique issued by the UK, USA, France and Germany yesterday: This use of a military-grade nerve agent, of a type developed by Russia, constitutes the first offensive use of a nerve agent in Europe since the Second World War.
When the same extremely careful phrasing is never deviated from, you know it is the result of a very delicate Whitehall compromise. My FCO source, like me, remembers the extreme pressure put on FCO staff and other civil servants to sign off the dirty dossier on Iraqi WMD, some of which pressure I recount in my memoir Murder in Samarkand. She volunteered the comparison to what is happening now, particularly at Porton Down, with no prompting from me.
Separately I have written to the media office at OPCW to ask them to confirm that there has never been any physical evidence of the existence of Russian Novichoks, and the programme of inspection and destruction of Russian chemical weapons was completed last year.
Did you know these interesting facts?
OPCW inspectors have had full access to all known Russian chemical weapons facilities for over a decade – including those identified by the “Novichok” alleged whistleblower Mirzayanov – and last year OPCW inspectors completed the destruction of the last of 40,000 tonnes of Russian chemical weapons.
By contrast the programme of destruction of US chemical weapons stocks still has five years to run
Israel has extensive stocks of chemical weapons but has always refused to declare any of them to the OPCW. Israel is not a state party to the Chemical Weapons Convention nor a member of the OPCW. Israel signed in 1993 but refused to ratify as this would mean inspection and destruction of its chemical weapons. Israel undoubtedly has as much technical capacity as any state to synthesise “Novichoks”.
Until this week, the near universal belief among chemical weapons experts, and the official position of the OPCW, was that “Novichoks” were at most a theoretical research programme which the Russians had never succeeded in actually synthesising and manufacturing. That is why they are not on the OPCW list of banned chemical weapons.
Porton Down is still not certain it is the Russians who have apparently synthesised a “Novichok”. Hence “Of a type developed by Russia”. Note developed, not made, produced or manufactured.
It is very carefully worded propaganda. Of a type developed by liars.
This post prompted another old colleague to get in touch. On the bright side, the FCO have persuaded Boris he has to let the OPCW investigate a saNOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
It smells the same to me.
If you look at a list of poisonings blamed on Putin, what would be the point of using big, messy, noticeable (and not every effective) exotic/ unique poisons to kill your (not every important) enemies when a simple "car accident" or "heart attack" or "robbery gone bad" will be more effective and a lot less noticeable? Why use means that blink in giant red letters that RUSSIA DID IT ?
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Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Why use means that blink in giant red letters that RUSSIA DID IT ?
GIANT RED MIDDLE FINGER
Today's political strategy keyword is: Destabilization
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Quote:
Why use means that blink in giant red letters that RUSSIA DID IT ? - SIGNY
GIANT RED MIDDLE FINGER
Today's political strategy keyword is Destabilization- GSTRING
So, how does Russian painting itself as The Bad Guy achieve the goal of "destabilzation"? It seems to me that the only nation that might destabilize is their own.
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Originally posted by SIGNYM:
So, how does Russian painting itself as The Bad Guy achieve the goal of "destabilzation"? It seems to me that the only nation that might destabilize is their own.
Do you think killing someone in someone else's backyard, in the open, almost mockingly, creates peace and calm?
Putin controls what Russians think, so he's got a vice grip on his country's stability (I think that was what you were suggesting).
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So, how does Russian painting itself as The Bad Guy achieve the goal of "destabilzation"? It seems to me that the only nation that might destabilize is their own.- SIGNY
Do you think killing someone in someone else's backyard, in the open, almost mockingly, creates peace and calm? Putin controls what Russians think, so he's got a vice grip on his country's stability (I think that was what you were suggesting). - CC
"Peace and calm" is not the problem. All that these poisonings have done is piss the west off against Russia, whip up anti-Russian feeling, invite sanctions against Russian entities and unify the various NATO nations under a commonly-purported threat.
How does that further Putin's aims?
You can't claim, on the one hand, that Putin is trying so desperately to reverse sanctions that he went so far as to "hack" our elections, and on the other hand that he would invite even MORE sanctions with a blatantly-Russian poisoning in a foreign nation, can you? What does that even accomplish, for him?
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Well, I see that CC has no explanation for how the FSB using unique Russian-based poisons for ineffectual assassination attempts against unimportant people might benefit Putin. Possibly because the idea makes no sense at all.
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Why would Russia assassinate someone and leave a calling card?
Why does anyone (e.g. the mob) assassinate someone and leave calling cards?
No one help Siggy and kiki with the answer. They can get this.
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Quote:
Originally posted by kpo:
Why would Russia assassinate someone and leave a calling card?
Why does anyone (e.g. the mob) assassinate someone and leave calling cards?
No one help Siggy and kiki with the answer. They can get this.
We all get it kpo. This is another example of sig and kiki defending Russia. No surprise here. It's what they always do. They either do it outright or attempt to disparage what we know to be true.
T
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So, let me guess...Russia is being framed. That would mean that some sinister country is out to make it look like Russia poisoned a former agent to make it seem that Putin and the FSB did it. The motive that would be used is revenge by Putin. What a dirty trick!
So Zerohedge scooped the world by obtaining this crucial bit of information. Someone, or some entity (cough, cough...the US) has it in for Comrade Putin.
How diabolical!
Tis' true...it makes little sense for Putin to exact revenge on a former, high ranking official of the KGB/FSB/MIC/KEY/MOUSE. There's no sense since the FSB are not really that sophisticated. They are no where near as sneaky and downright dastardly as the US and British Intelligence.
SGG
Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:Quote:
https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-03-19/porton-down-scientists-under
-extreme-pressure-confirm-nerve-gas-russian
Porton Down Scientists Under Extreme Pressure To Confirm Nerve Gas As Russian
Authored by Craig Murray via The Strategic Culture Foundation,
I have now received confirmation from a well placed FCO source that Porton Down scientists are not able to identify the nerve gas as being of Russian manufacture, and have been resentful of the pressure being placed on them to do so.
Porton Down would only sign up to the formulation “of a type developed by Russia” after a rather difficult meeting where this was agreed as a compromise formulation.
The Russians were allegedly researching, in the “Novichok” programme a generation of nerve agents which could be produced from commercially available precursors such as insecticides and fertilisers. This substance is a “novichok” in that sense. It is of that type. Just as I am typing on a laptop of a type developed by the United States, though this one was made in China.
To anybody with a Whitehall background this has been obvious for several days.
The government has never said the nerve agent was made in Russia, or that it can only be made in Russia. The exact formulation “of a type developed by Russia” was used by Theresa May in parliament, used by the UK at the UN Security Council, used by Boris Johnson on the BBC yesterday and, most tellingly of all, “of a type developed by Russia” is the precise phrase used in the joint communique issued by the UK, USA, France and Germany yesterday: This use of a military-grade nerve agent, of a type developed by Russia, constitutes the first offensive use of a nerve agent in Europe since the Second World War.
When the same extremely careful phrasing is never deviated from, you know it is the result of a very delicate Whitehall compromise. My FCO source, like me, remembers the extreme pressure put on FCO staff and other civil servants to sign off the dirty dossier on Iraqi WMD, some of which pressure I recount in my memoir Murder in Samarkand. She volunteered the comparison to what is happening now, particularly at Porton Down, with no prompting from me.
Separately I have written to the media office at OPCW to ask them to confirm that there has never been any physical evidence of the existence of Russian Novichoks, and the programme of inspection and destruction of Russian chemical weapons was completed last year.
Did you know these interesting facts?
OPCW inspectors have had full access to all known Russian chemical weapons facilities for over a decade – including those identified by the “Novichok” alleged whistleblower Mirzayanov – and last year OPCW inspectors completed the destruction of the last of 40,000 tonnes of Russian chemical weapons.
By contrast the programme of destruction of US chemical weapons stocks still has five years to run
Israel has extensive stocks of chemical weapons but has always refused to declare any of them to the OPCW. Israel is not a state party to the Chemical Weapons Convention nor a member of the OPCW. Israel signed in 1993 but refused to ratify as this would mean inspection and destruction of its chemical weapons. Israel undoubtedly has as much technical capacity as any stateNOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
When you're right, you're right...the Mob does leave a mess whenever they whack someone. My guess is that Putin, alledgedly, wants to be sure everyone knows not to mess with the FSB.
The new version of the Russian Mafia!
SGG
Quote:
Originally posted by kpo:
Why would Russia assassinate someone and leave a calling card?
Why does anyone (e.g. the mob) assassinate someone and leave calling cards?
No one help Siggy and kiki with the answer. They can get this.
-------------------------------------------------------
"Objective truths are established by evidence. Personal truths by faith. Political truths by incessant repetition."
Russia's and Assad's War Crimes in Syria - http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=60278
Syrian regime collusion with ISIS - http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=60521
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Quote:
Originally posted by kpo:
Why would Russia assassinate someone and leave a calling card?
Why does anyone (e.g. the mob) assassinate someone and leave calling cards?
No one help Siggy and kiki with the answer. They can get this.
Deal. Not holding my breath though.
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Quote:Well, it depends on who they've assassinated.
Why would Russia assassinate someone and leave a calling card?
Why does anyone (e.g. the mob) assassinate someone and leave calling cards?- KRAPO
If they assassinate a "snitch" from their own ranks, it's a warning to snitches.
If they assassinate a deadbeat, it's a threat to potential welshers everywhere.
If they assassinate a rival, it's a territorial statement.
But what would they gain by assassinating a local cop and leaving a "calling card", especially if that murder was going to ignite a full-on war against them by the FBI, CIA, IRS, ATF&E, local PD, and the banks? Because that's kind of what happened, and it still doesn't make any sense from a Russian POV. So please explain.
ETA: OTOH, these murders suit the UK, USA, and NATO agenda just fine.
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Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
But what would they gain by assassinating a local cop
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"Objective truths are established by evidence. Personal truths by faith. Political truths by incessant repetition."
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In other words, KRAPO, you've run out of anything relevant to say? Gotten to THUGR territory, where you post a cartoon instead of words, claim victory and run away?
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In other words, KRAPO, you've run out of anything relevant to say?
Nothing to add to your nonsensical ravings, no.
Quote:
Gotten to THUGR territory, where you post a cartoon instead of words
A cartoon? It's called a meme, grandma.
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It's funny, but hubby was just talking with a Russian expat postdoc where they both work, and this man ... who was EXTREMELY anti-Russian and anti-Putin ... has gotten completely fed up with the western press. One of the things that he said was that the mass spectrum of this type of nerve agent had been published years ago. This means that at least enough of the chemical to analyze must have been synthesized, and that many nations have researched these kinds of compounds. In other words, the synthesis of this kind of warfare agent is something of an open international secret; there's no reason to believe that Russia was the ONLY possible source.
Supposedly, the UK has refused to turn over any evidence or any samples to Russia for parallel analysis, and also refused to let Russian investigators talk to, or even see, the victims.
Yanno, we've had many industries watch over our shoulders while we recovered/ processed samples. And one of the best ways to resolve conflicting results was split-sample analysis, which we did with extremely contentious samples. That's the only honest, above-board way to resolve these kinds of problems. Is the UK not willing to conduct an honest investigation capable of withstanding transparency?
Apparently, the way the MSM has been behaving has completely shaken this guy's faith in "western values" and especially the western press.
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there's no reason to believe that Russia was the ONLY possible source.
Let me put it another, more accurate way: Russia is the only country that has had a Novichok program that we know about, but there could, in theory, be others. Yes, I don't think anyone has made a secret of that. An important point here is that we're talking about nation states, not private groups or individuals.
Quote:
Supposedly, the UK has refused to turn over any evidence or any samples to Russia for parallel analysis
Spoken like someone who trusts the upstanding honesty of the Russian government. You don't think the Russian state would have a motive to lie? Or has a track record of lying? If your answer is "no" to these Qs, put yourself in the shoes of someone who isn't a fool for a moment to try to understand where the rest of us are coming from.
Quote:
That's the only honest, above-board way to resolve these kinds of problems. Is the UK not willing to conduct an honest investigation capable of withstanding transparency?
They've submitted samples to the OPCW, does that count?
Quote:
and also refused to let Russian investigators talk to, or even see, the victims.
Lol, just what the Skripals need. "Good morning Mr and Mrs Skripal, some agents of the Russian government are here."
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Quote:
Originally posted by kpo:Quote:
and also refused to let Russian investigators talk to, or even see, the victims.
Lol, just what the Skripals need. "Good morning Mr and Mrs Skripal, some agents of the Russian government are here."
*sputter* "So nice to meet you both...please, let me... shake your hand."
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I guess neither of you think much about the accused being allowed to examine the evidence? The norms of the justice system are meaningless to you?
Apparently so.
******
In any case, here's a fundamental question:
If this was such a super-secret chemical (category of chemicals, really) then how did the UK lab manage to identify and name it so quickly? How did they know what it was? How did they know what name to give it?
The way it really works in chemical trace ID is that if you've stumbled across a unique compound, it takes quite a bit of guesswork and calculation to re-assemble the original molecule from the mass fragments ... I know, because we had to do that for several unknown compounds that we ran across. It's not a simple project, and on top of that, we certainly wouldn't have been able to put a name on it like (for example) "Scotchguard" unless we already had a sample of Scotchguard to compare it to for positive ID.
So you can't put a "commercial" name to a chemical do that unless you have a standard to compare it to, which means that SOMEone must have produced enough of them (Novichok) as exemplars, and those exemplars (or the mass spectral library of these compounds) existed in the Porton Down lab.
And where ONE synthesis was done, and the information was in some fashion accessible to the Porton Down Lab, then clearly the information on how to do the synthesis was already "out there", at least among some western government labs.
Hence, the very careful wording "of a type developed by Russia".
You'll notice that they didn't say "of a type developed ONLY by Russia".
That's the amazing thing about chemistry: It works, whether you're in Russia or the UK (or the USA); and if they could make it there, then some enterprising chemist found a way to make it here.
I had a past employee who now works for VERIFIN. I'll nose around as ask what she knows.
BTW, the "Novichok" designation doesn't refer to a single molecular formula, like Sarin, but to a class of related compounds.
*****
And back to my original point: What would be Russia's purpose in poisoning a has-been Russian spy, considering all of the fuss, drama, and rabid anti-Russian reaction among (some of the) NATO nations? I can't see any good coming of it, for Russia. OTOH, it fits into the western deep state's agenda quite nicely. For them, they get to whip up even more anti-Putin fervor; pressure Germany into abandoning Nord Stream II; and for May, she gets to distract from the clusterfuck that is the Brexit negotiations. Yanno, these deep-state-types, when all else fails, they start a war, and this looks like yet another excuse to provoke Russia into doing something stupid in return.
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bump
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27 countries pledge to kick out Russian diplomats over poisoning of ex-spy. You're and kiki's defense of Russia means nothing Sig.
T
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Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
And back to my original point: What would be Russia's purpose in poisoning a has-been Russian spy, considering all of the fuss, drama, and rabid anti-Russian reaction among (some of the) NATO nations? I can't see any good coming of it, for Russia. OTOH, it fits into the western deep state's agenda quite nicely. For them, they get to whip up even more anti-Putin fervor; pressure Germany into abandoning Nord Stream II; and for May, she gets to distract from the clusterfuck that is the Brexit negotiations. Yanno, these deep-state-types, when all else fails, they start a war, and this looks like yet another excuse to provoke Russia into doing something stupid in return.
I couldn't see any benefit for Russia to invade Ukraine/Crimea with troops without insignias like that would fool anyone, but that didn't stop Putin from doing it. Sometimes people just make mistakes.
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Quote:
Originally posted by THGRRI:
27 countries pledge to kick out Russian diplomats over poisoning of ex-spy. You're and kiki's defense of Russia means nothing Sig.
That was a pretty awesome display wasn't it? "Hey Russia, stop being the child at the picnic! The grown-ups have had enough!"
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Quote:
Originally posted by captaincrunch:Quote:
Originally posted by THGRRI:
27 countries pledge to kick out Russian diplomats over poisoning of ex-spy. You're and kiki's defense of Russia means nothing Sig.
That was a pretty awesome display wasn't it? "Hey Russia, stop being the child at the picnic! The grown-ups have had enough!"
Yep, solidarity is a good message to send. Yet what the Russian people don't care about, is when it is the oligarchs money that is targeted. They know it was pilfered from them. To them expulsions are targeted at Russia itself. It allows for an, it's us against them mentality. That helps Putin. More sanctions against the pilfered money is what works best. Those sanctions separate the Russian peoples interests from the Russian governments interests.
T
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Quote:I can understand Russia wanting Crimea, but not the rest of Ukraine. I'll leave it to you, as an exercise in thinking to figure out what the real reason is.
I couldn't see any benefit for Russia toinvadeUkraine/Crimea with troops without insignias like that would fool anyone, but that didn't stop Putin from doing it. Sometimes people just make mistakes.
Quote:And this is the perfect reason why Russia/ Putin would NOT want to poison anyone in another nation. You're kind of making my case for me, THUGR, if you hadn't noticed. But of course you wouldn't.
27 countries pledge to kick out Russian diplomats over poisoning of ex-spy. You're and kiki's defense of Russia means nothing Sig.
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Quote:Signym, that is wrongheaded. Straightforwardly, Putin Finally Went Too Far. The unified international response to the Skripal poisoning shows that the West will only suffer so much provocation. For years now, Putin’s calculation has been that the West is strong but lacking in unity and will, allowing a scrappy Russia willing to bend and break the rules of the international order to assert its place as a global player. But the success of this gambit hinged on his capacity to assess what the West would tolerate. By exceeding those limits, he may have delivered a triple blow to himself.
Originally posted by SIGNYM:Quote:And this is the perfect reason why Russia/ Putin would NOT want to poison anyone in another nation. You're kind of making my case for me, THUGR, if you hadn't noticed. But of course you wouldn't.
27 countries pledge to kick out Russian diplomats over poisoning of ex-spy. You're and kiki's defense of Russia means nothing Sig.
www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2018/03/putin-skripal-expuls
ion-russia-poisoning-trump/556556/
The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly
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Remember second that Russia moves the money it steals from its people to America and Europe. One way is in real estate purchases. This is a big boon to the economies of the recipient countries. That has paid for a lot of patience or look the other way policies in the past.
T
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Quote:Oh, baloney. Neither you nor I think that Putin and his administration are really that stupid.
Straightforwardly, Putin Finally Went Too Far.- SECOND
And doesn't that blow your narrative of Putin and Trump being in cahoots with each other? Why would Putin blow a perfectly good puppet over a pointless poisoning?
Nothing that you or the MSM say makes a bit of sense. It's just plain idiotic.
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Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Straightforwardly, Putin Finally Went Too Far.- SECOND
Quote:
Oh, baloney. Neither you nor I think that Putin and his administration are really that stupid. sig
I do, I think Putin's that stupid. I think you are as well.
T
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Quote:If Putin is so stupid, why are you so paranoid about him?
Straightforwardly, Putin Finally Went Too Far.- SECOND
Oh, baloney. Neither you nor I think that Putin and his administration are really that stupid. sig
I do- THUGR
In any case, everybody knows you're the biggest idiot on the board - your thoughts apparently have never even met each other so you contradict yourself all the time- so your opinion doesn't count.
Heil Hitler!
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Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:Quote:Then why are you so paranoid about Putin?
Straightforwardly, Putin Finally Went Too Far.- SECOND
Oh, baloney. Neither you nor I think that Putin and his administration are really that stupid. sig
I do- THUGR
In any case, everybody knows you're the biggest idiot on the board, so your opinion doesn't count.
Heil Hitler!
I see Putin as guilty as charged, when it comes to everything that's been reported about him in the press here and abroad. Nothing paranoid about that. You see him as innocent and you post on his behalf every time. We all know why comrade.
T
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Quote:Well, OF COURSE you do! You never were one to let evidence, logic, or western jurisprudence stand in your way!
I see Putin as guilty as charged, when it comes to everything that's been reported about him in the press here and abroad- THUGR
Heil Hitler!
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Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
I guess neither of you think much about the accused being allowed to examine the evidence? The norms of the justice system are meaningless to you?
Are you saying accused criminals should get to conduct their own analyses? "According to MY lab results, that isn't my DNA at the crime scene, your honour."
Yeah, real useful.
Quote:
If this was such a super-secret chemical (category of chemicals, really) then how did the UK lab manage to identify and name it so quickly? How did they know what it was? How did they know what name to give it?
You yourself said just before (and I agreed with you) that this "super-secret" chemical was an "open international secret", and its mass spectrum published, etc.
Quote:
You'll notice that they didn't say "of a type developed ONLY by Russia".
Yawn. Already addressed this. Yes, theoretically another country could've developed its own Novichok program. Novichok doesn't prove that it was Russia, it merely points to Russia, the only country with a known Novichok program.
Quote:
So you can't put a "commercial" name to a chemical do that unless you have a standard to compare it to... and those exemplars (or the mass spectral library of these compounds) existed in the Porton Down lab.
Yes, without doubt, the scientists at Porton Down had access to the mass spectral library of the Novichoks. As you said yourself: it had been PUBLISHED. So what's your point here?
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Quote:
Originally posted by captaincrunch:Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
And back to my original point: What would be Russia's purpose in poisoning a has-been Russian spy, considering all of the fuss, drama, and rabid anti-Russian reaction among (some of the) NATO nations? I can't see any good coming of it, for Russia. OTOH, it fits into the western deep state's agenda quite nicely. For them, they get to whip up even more anti-Putin fervor; pressure Germany into abandoning Nord Stream II; and for May, she gets to distract from the clusterfuck that is the Brexit negotiations. Yanno, these deep-state-types, when all else fails, they start a war, and this looks like yet another excuse to provoke Russia into doing something stupid in return.
I couldn't see any benefit for Russia to invade Ukraine/Crimea with troops without insignias like that would fool anyone, but that didn't stop Putin from doing it. Sometimes people just make mistakes.
Exactly - starting the war in Ukraine's east especially, was a misstep. I personally think Putin should've stopped at Crimea. As it is, he has drawn much heavier international sanctions, created two little separatist enclaves that bleed money from Russia, and lost Ukraine from Russia's geopolitical orbit FOREVER.
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"Objective truths are established by evidence. Personal truths by faith. Political truths by incessant repetition."
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Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
I can understand Russia wanting Crimea, but not the rest of Ukraine. I'll leave it to you, as an exercise in thinking to figure out what the real reason is.
And I'll leave it to you, as an exercise in ethics, to figure out why taking Crimea was an International Crime.
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Calmly and with great sincerity, Putin said many untruthful things before and after the annexation of Crimea, proving that he is an efficient ruler. He said many untruthful things about Russian doping after the Winter Olympics at Sochi, proving it again. It is Putin’s way of handling problems with the least expenditure of his personal energy and time. In that way he is a very efficient ruler and a lying sack of shit.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annexation_of_Crimea_by_the_Russian_Fede
ration#Crimean_status_referendum
The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly
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Quote:I guess Kosovo was too.
I can understand Russia wanting Crimea, but not the rest of Ukraine. I'll leave it to you, as an exercise in thinking to figure out what the real reason is. - SIGNY
And I'll leave it to you, as an exercise in ethics, to figure out why taking Crimea was an International Crime.- GSTRING
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Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:Quote:I guess Kosovo was too.
I can understand Russia wanting Crimea, but not the rest of Ukraine. I'll leave it to you, as an exercise in thinking to figure out what the real reason is. - SIGNY
And I'll leave it to you, as an exercise in ethics, to figure out why taking Crimea was an International Crime.- GSTRING
You haven't even thought about that reply.
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Three points, KPO
The mass spectral libraries of "Novichok" were publish in the west. In the United States, to be precise. So somebody here was able to make this class of compounds in order to acquire and publish the results.
Russia did not "start a war" in Donbas. You seem to have that backwards, as it was the Kiev regime that started taking steps towards "ethnic cleansing" with their pet neo-Nazis running around, in government, incorporated into the armed forces, and dragging people off buses and beating them up or burning them en masse. I guess you "forgot" that part.
What is the difference between Kosovo and Crimea? I fail to see any (except that one secession was promoted by the west and one by the east), but you seem to think they're not the same, so explain.
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Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Three points, KRAPO
The mass spectral libraries of "Novichok" were publish in the west. In the United States, to be precise. So somebody here was able to make this class of compounds in order to acquire and publish the results.
Russia did not "start a war" in Donbas. You seem to have that backwards, as it was the Kiev regime that started taking steps towards "ethnic cleansing" with their pet neo-Nazis running around, in government, incorporated into the armed forces, and dragging people off buses and beating them up or burning them en masse. I guess you "forgot" that part.
What is the difference between Kosovo and Crimea? I fail to see any (except that one secession was promoted by the west and one by the east), but you seem to think they're not the same, so explain.
First let me say again we see sig present a Putinish point of view. Secondly sig, Kosovo declared independence. Crimea was annexed by Russia. Big difference...
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First, let me say that we see SIG presenting FACTS.
Second ... Heil Hitler!
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Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
First, let me say that we see SIG presenting FACTS.
Second ... Heil Hitler!
OK a quiz.
Who here hates Jews? that would be you.
Who here is attacking the rule of law and media in this country? Something Hitler did in Germany? Again, that would be you.
Who didn't respond to my challenge of the so called facts you posted. You didn't...
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Quote:Uh huh. I don't think I've EVER said anything bad about Jews, so .. prove it. LINKS PLEASE
First, let me say that we see SIG presenting FACTS.
Second ... Heil Hitler!
- SIGNY
OK a quiz.
Who here hates Jews? that would be you.
Quote:Uh huh. What I've been posting about, over and over, is the EQUAL APPLICATION of the law and CONSISTENT ETHICAL CODE, so, once again ... prove it. LINKS PLEASE.
Who here is attacking the rule of law and media in this country? Something Hitler did in Germany? Again, that would be you.
Quote:What "facts"? As far as I can tell, you never post facts, you simply post wildly off-base personal attacks. So, prove it. LINKS PLEASE, to your so-called "challenge".
Who didn't respond to my challenge of the so called facts you posted. You didn't...
As far as YOU'RE concerned, what YOU like is a very authoritarian style of government: One which has the power and the authority to snoop into people's lives, censor communication, and declare people guilty on no evidence at all. You believe in, and promote, The Big Lie and you LOVE the idea of the elite controlling our society. Plus, you're a war-monger. As far as I can tell, you're just the perfect little Nazi, so...
Heil Hitler!
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Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
The mass spectral libraries of "Novichok" were publish in the west. In the United States, to be precise. So somebody here was able to make this class of compounds in order to acquire and publish the results.
A Soviet scientist who worked on the Novichok program turned whistleblower and published a report in the West about it. Any specific evidence that the US has manufactured Novichok agents?
Quote:
Russia did not "start a war" in Donbas. You seem to have that backwards, as it was the Kiev regime that started taking steps towards "ethnic cleansing"
"Little green men" started running around in Donbas in early April 2014, storming police stations and whatnot. By this time Kremlin propaganda had been screaming about Ukrainian ethnic cleansing or persecution campaigns against ethnic Russians for months - but this was all fantastical, exaggerated bullshit. Classic propaganda. I remember you sharing some of it. It was the dubious grounds Putin needed to start his "civil" war.
Quote:
What is the difference between Kosovo and Crimea? I fail to see any
Haha. Well it's not because they're not obvious, and it's not because they haven't been pointed out to you.
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Quote:
The mass spectral libraries of "Novichok" were publish in the west. In the United States, to be precise. So somebody here was able to make this class of compounds in order to acquire and publish the results.-SIGNY
A Soviet scientist who worked on the Novichok program turned whistleblower and published a report in the West about it. Any specific evidence that the US has manufactured Novichok agents?- KPO
Mass spectral libraries are specific pieces of information which are affected by the instruments they were acquired on. In order for a mass spectral library to be useful, they must be acquired on instruments which meet specific criteria; it is highly unlikely that a mass spectral library acquired on old Soviet instruments would be useful in a modern lab.
Quote:
Russia did not "start a war" in Donbas. You seem to have that backwards, as it was the Kiev regime that started taking steps towards "ethnic cleansing"-SIGNY
"Little green men" started running around in Donbas in early April 2014, storming police stations and whatnot. By this time Kremlin propaganda had been screaming about Ukrainian ethnic cleansing or persecution campaigns against ethnic Russians for months - but this was all fantastical, exaggerated bullshit. Classic propaganda. I remember you sharing some of it. It was the dubious grounds Putin needed to start his "civil" war.- KPO
Oh, you mean that the people who were burned in the Trades Union building in Odessa, and the clashes that preceded them, were fanatstical?
That neo-Nazis were not incorporated into government security forces, as announced by the Kiev government? https://www.salon.com/2014/02/25/is_the_us_backing_neo_nazis_in_ukrain
e_partner/
That people pulled off buses and beaten up by neo-Nazis didn't happen? that the Kiev regime didn't make an abortive attempt to outlaw the Russian language?
What are you saying, KPO? That all of these internationally well-documented events were somehow fake? If that's your post, then you're either delusional or a complete liar.
Quote:So, point them out, and we can go over that item by item. I'll bet you that you can't.
What is the difference between Kosovo and Crimea? I fail to see any but you seem to think they're not the same, so explain. SIGNY
Haha. Well it's not because they're not obvious, and it's not because they haven't been pointed out to you.- KPO
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The UK government’s presentation on the Salisbury incident, which was repeatedly cited in recent days as an “ultimate proof” of Russia’s involvement into Skripal’s assassination attempt, was made public earlier today.
This 6-paged PDF is a powerful evidence of another intellectual low of British propaganda machine. Open it and you can tell that substantially it makes only two assertions on the Skripal case, and both are false:
Salisbury incident UK government presentation March 22, 2018 Skripal
First. Novichok is a group of agents developed only by Russia and not declared under the CWC” – a false statement.
Novichok was originally developed in the USSR (Nukus Lab, today in Uzbekistan, site completely decommissioned according to the US-Uzbekistan agreement by 2002). One of its key developers, Vil Mirzayanov, defected to the United States in 1990s, its chemical formula and technology were openly published in a number of chemical journals outside Russia. Former top-ranking British foreign service officer Craig Murray specifically noted this point on March 17:
I have now been sent the vital information that in late 2016, Iranian scientists set out to study whether novichoks really could be produced from commercially available ingredients. Iran succeeded in synthesising a number of novichoks. Iran did this in full cooperation with the OPCW and immediately reported the results to the OPCW so they could be added to the chemical weapons database.
This makes complete nonsense of the Theresa May’s “of a type developed by Russia” line, used to parliament and the UN Security Council. This explains why Porton Down has refused to cave in to governmental pressure to say the nerve agent was Russian. If Iran can make a novichok, so can a significant number of states.
Second. “We are without doubt that Russia is responsible. No country bar Russia has combined capability, intent and motive. There is no plausible alternative explanation” – an outstading example of self-hypnosis. None of the previous items could even remotely lead to this conclusion. The prominent British academician from the University of Kent Prof. Richard Sakwa has elaborated on this on March 23 the following way:
Rather than just the two possibilities outlined by Theresa May, in fact there are at least six, possibly seven. The first is that this was a state-sponsored, and possibly Putin-ordered, killing… This version simply does not make sense, and until concrete evidence emerges, it should be discounted…
The second version is rather more plausible, that the authorities had lost control of its stocks of chemical weapons. In the early 1990s Russian facilities were notoriously lax, but since the 2000s strict control over stocks were re-imposed, until their final destruction in 2017. It is quite possible that some person or persons unknown secreted material, and then conducted some sort of vigilante operation…
The third version is the exact opposite: some sort of anti-Putin action by those trying to force his policy choices…
The fourth version is similar, but this time the anti-Putinists are not home-grown but outsiders. Here the list of people who would allegedly benefit by discrediting Russia is a long one. If Novichok or its formula has proliferated, then it would not be that hard to organise some sort of false flag operation. The list of countries mentioned in social media in this respect is a long one. Obviously, Ukraine comes top of the list, not only because of motivation, but also because of possible access to the material, as a post-Soviet state with historical links to the Russian chemical weapons programme. Israel has a large chemical weapon inventory and is not a party to the OPCW; but it has no motivation for such an attack (unless some inadvertent leak occurred here). Another version is that the UK itself provoked the incident, as a way of elevating its status as a country ‘punching above its weight’. TNOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Sig you keep posting as though it's being read by the serious posters in these threads. The posters here who rely on facts. It's not, because nobody gives a shit what a Russian troll has to say.
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Quote:Heil Hitler!
Sig you keep posting as though it's being read by the serious posters in these threads. The posters here who rely on facts. It's not, because nobody gives a shit what a Russian troll has to say.
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Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:Quote:Heil Hitler!
T
Sig you keep posting as though it's being read by the serious posters in these threads. The posters here who rely on facts. It's not, because nobody gives a shit what a Russian troll has to say.
I'm sure your mother would be very proud.
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Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
It is highly unlikely that a mass spectral library acquired on old Soviet instruments would be useful in a modern lab.
Uh huh. I smell bullshit. First of all, where's this link stating that the West has published the mass spectral libraries of the Novichoks?
Quote:
Oh, you mean that the people who were burned in the Trades Union building in Odessa, and the clashes that preceded them, were fanatstical?
Sig, just to remind you, we're arguing over who started a war, and I've just argued it was the little green men storming police stations in April 2014. Why respond with an incident that A) The Kiev government had no role in and B) happened in May 2014?
Quote:
That neo-Nazis were not incorporated into government security forces, as announced by the Kiev government?
Here's the full list of the provisional government, please point out the "Neo-nazis" in the "government security forces". - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Yatsenyuk_government
Name them please.
Quote:
That people pulled off buses and beaten up by neo-Nazis didn't happen?
Was this off the RT propaganda video you shared at the time? And what has it got to do with your claim that Kiev started the war?
Quote:
the Kiev regime didn't make an abortive attempt to outlaw the Russian language?
Lol. I don't think even RT claimed that. And even this false claim is not evidence that Kiev started the war.
Quote:
What are you saying, KPO? That all of these internationally well-documented events were somehow fake?
Fake. Propaganda-hyped. Irrelevant.
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Bump
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Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
It is highly unlikely that a mass spectral library acquired on old Soviet instruments would be useful in a modern lab.
Quote:It IS true that a mass spectrum from an old Soviet instrument wouldn't give equivalent results. The technique is very technology-sensitive - from how you introduce the item in question at the start of the analysis, to detection at the end - type of ionization, mass-separation technology, detector type.
Originally posted by kpo:
Uh huh. I smell bullshit.
Quote:it was just a wikilink away - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novichok_agent#cite_note-spectroscopynow
First of all, where's this link stating that the West has published the mass spectral libraries of the Novichoks?
-20170101-13 Hosseini SE, Saeidian H, Amozadeh A, Naseri MT, Babri M (5 October 2016). "Fragmentation pathways and structural characterization of organophosphorus compounds related to the Chemical Weapons Convention by electron ionization and electrospray ionization tandem mass spectrometry". Rapid
So anyway ... anyone up for a rational, fact-based, and civil discussion about the topic?
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Quote:
Originally posted by kpo:Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
It is highly unlikely that a mass spectral library acquired on old Soviet instruments would be useful in a modern lab.
Uh huh. I smell bullshit. First of all, where's this link stating that the West has published the mass spectral libraries of the Novichoks?Quote:
Oh, you mean that the people who were burned in the Trades Union building in Odessa, and the clashes that preceded them, were fanatstical?
Sig, just to remind you, we're arguing over who started a war, and I've just argued it was the little green men storming police stations in April 2014. Why respond with an incident that A) The Kiev government had no role in and B) happened in May 2014?Quote:
That neo-Nazis were not incorporated into government security forces, as announced by the Kiev government?
Here's the full list of the provisional government, please point out the "Neo-nazis" in the "government security forces". - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Yatsenyuk_government
Name them please.Quote:
That people pulled off buses and beaten up by neo-Nazis didn't happen?
Was this off the RT propaganda video you shared at the time? And what has it got to do with your claim that Kiev started the war?Quote:
the Kiev regime didn't make an abortive attempt to outlaw the Russian language?
Lol. I don't think even RT claimed that. And even this false claim is not evidence that Kiev started the war.Quote:
What are you saying, KPO? That all of these internationally well-documented events were somehow fake?
Fake. Propaganda-hyped. Irrelevant.
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"Objective truths are established by evidence. Personal truths by faith. Political truths by incessant repetition."
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Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:Quote:it was just a wikilink away - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novichok_agent#cite_note-spectroscopynow
First of all, where's this link stating that the West has published the mass spectral libraries of the Novichoks?
-20170101-13 Hosseini SE, Saeidian H, Amozadeh A, Naseri MT, Babri M (5 October 2016). "Fragmentation pathways and structural characterization of organophosphorus compounds related to the Chemical Weapons Convention by electron ionization and electrospray ionization tandem mass spectrometry". Rapid
Thanks kiki!
From the article:
Quote:
The Iranian researchers synthesised five ‘Novichok’ agents, along with four deuterated analogues. They were all O-alkyl N-[bis(dimethylamino)methylidene]-P-methylphosphonamidate compounds (i.e. molecules with the typical nerve agent phosphorus group coupled to N,N,N’N’-tetramethylguanidine). The O-alkyl group was varied, with the methoxy, ethoxy, isopropoxy, phenoxy, and 2,6-dimethylphenoxy derivatives being prepared. The syntheses were carried out on a micro-scale in order to minimize exposure.
...
The authors succeeded in synthesising and obtaining detailed mass spectral data on a series of unusual nerve agents. The data have been added to the Organisation for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons’ Central Analytical Database (OCAD). It is important that such databases are as comprehensive as possible so that unusual chemical weapons can be unambiguously detected.
Over to you, Sig. Exactly what is your point about this international publishing of Novichok mass spectral data?
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From the actual wikipage previously linked
Quote:
In 2016, Iranian chemists synthesised five Novichok agents for analysis and produced detailed mass spectral data which was added to the Organisation for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons Central Analytical Database.
Quote:I think you'll agree that The Hague is in 'the West', so that, in sum, this information was published in the West.
The Organisation for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons is an intergovernmental organisation and the implementing body for the Chemical Weapons Convention, which entered into force on 29 April 1997. Wikipedia Headquarters: The Hague, Netherlands
Do you agree?
ETA: Government labs around the world could already have secretly synthesized, modified, and characterized various Novichoks, legitimizing their work by claiming it's in the service of finding antidotes. But that work wouldn't be openly published.
So anyway ... anyone up for a rational, fact-based, and civil discussion about the topic?
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Quote:The shit you're smelling must be your own. I subsequently posted a report of these chemicals having been SYNTHESIZED and ANALYZED by Iran, and REPORTED TO, AND IN THE WEST. Clearly, the ability to synthesize and identify these chemicals was not EXCLUSIVE to the Soviet Union.
It is highly unlikely that a mass spectral library acquired on old Soviet instruments would be useful in a modern lab. - SIGNY
Uh huh. I smell bullshit. First of all, where's this link stating that the West has published the mass spectral libraries of the Novichoks?- KRAPO
Also, how were the victims treated? Did they use an antidote? If so, how did they know which one to use? If so, how did they even have the correct on at hand?
Obviously, you don't know anything about mass spectral analysis, and I'm sure not going to take the time to educate you.
Quote:This will take more time than I have to answer, especially if you insist on remaining in denial about the role of neo-Nazis on the Kiev regime. Maybe later.
Oh, you mean that the people who were burned in the Trades Union building in Odessa, and the clashes that preceded them, were fantastical? - SIGNY
Sig, just to remind you, we're arguing over who started a war, and I've just argued it was the little green men storming police stations in April 2014. Why respond with an incident that A) The Kiev government had no role in and B) happened in May 2014? - KRAPO
Quote:Are you saying that they would have CALLED themselves "neo-Nazis"? Again, this will take more time than I have right now, especially if you remain in denial about the role of neo-Nazis in the Kiev regime.
That neo-Nazis were not incorporated into government security forces, as announced by the Kiev government? SIGNY
Here's the full list of the provisional government, please point out the "Neo-nazis" in the "government security forces". - https://en.wikipedia.org - KRAPO
Quote:Again, will take more time than I have, the video is evidence of what happened, and it was viewable in many places. Funny, how you believe s snippet of a vid if it tells you what you want to hear, then deny its validity if there's info that you don't want to know. But if you want to know who "started" the war, it was whoever paid the snipers to kill people in the Maidan, and that was neither Yanukovich nor the Russians.
That people pulled off buses and beaten up by neo-Nazis didn't happen?- SIGNY
Was this off the RT propaganda video you shared at the time? And what has it got to do with your claim that Kiev started the war?- KRAPO
Quote:Actually, we discussed it at the time, and IIRC YOUR response to that was that the proposal was abandoned, not that it never occurred. I dunno, maybe you did a memory wipe on yourself?
the Kiev regime didn't make an abortive attempt to outlaw the Russian language?- SIGNY
Lol. I don't think even RT claimed that. And even this false claim is not evidence that Kiev started the war.- KRAPO
Quote:
What are you saying, KPO? That all of these internationally well-documented events were somehow fake?- SIGNY
Yes, that what you're saying: You're in complete denial of things that were reported even in the BBC.
AND FINALLY - What ARE the differences between Kosovo and Crimea? You DO seem to be dodging that question!
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Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:Quote:The shit you're smelling must be your own. I subsequently posted a report of these chemicals having been SYNTHESIZED and ANALYZED by Iran
It is highly unlikely that a mass spectral library acquired on old Soviet instruments would be useful in a modern lab. - SIGNY
Uh huh. I smell bullshit. First of all, where's this link stating that the West has published the mass spectral libraries of the Novichoks?- KRAPO
Hmm, don't you mean 1kiki posted this report?
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It is highly unlikely that a mass spectral library acquired on old Soviet instruments would be useful in a modern lab. - SIGNY
Uh huh. I smell bullshit. First of all, where's this link stating that the West has published the mass spectral libraries of the Novichoks?- KRAPO
The shit you're smelling must be your own. I subsequently posted a report of these chemicals having been SYNTHESIZED and ANALYZED by Iran- SIGNY
Hmm, don't you mean 1kiki posted this report?- KRAPO
No, this is what I posted on the topic, see previous page
Quote:
Novichok was originally developed in the USSR (Nukus Lab, today in Uzbekistan, site completely decommissioned according to the US-Uzbekistan agreement by 2002). One of its key developers, Vil Mirzayanov, defected to the United States in 1990s, its chemical formula and technology were openly published in a number of chemical journals outside Russia. Former top-ranking British foreign service officer Craig Murray specifically noted this point on March 17:
I have now been sent the vital information that in late 2016, Iranian scientists set out to study whether novichoks really could be produced from commercially available ingredients. Iran succeeded in synthesising a number of novichoks. Iran did this in full cooperation with the OPCW and immediately reported the results to the OPCW so they could be added to the chemical weapons database.
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This is very simple. The Russians did it.
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Quote:Oh, and BTW- Heil Hitler!This isI'm very simple. The Russians did it.- THUGR
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Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
No, this is what I posted on the topic, see previous page
Ah, very good, I missed that earlier.
So, what's your point exactly? Iran synthesised micro quantities of Novichok compounds and shared the mass spectral data with the OPCW. Kiki seems to be adding that this data was then published in the West.
So thanks to this data, any Western country should be able to identify Novichoks when they've been used?
That's great. Thanks Iran. But what's your point?
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Quote:Hmmm ... what COULD the point be .... maybe it's that they synthesized actual Novichoks. That once you work out the synthesis steps - helpfully documented by Russia in their theoretical speculation - if you can synthesize small quantities, you can synthesize large quantities. And that if you can synthesize Novichoks in large quantities, you are then also rendered capable of deploying them.
Originally posted by kpo:
So, what's your point exactly? Iran synthesised micro quantities of Novichok compounds and shared the mass spectral data with the OPCW. Kiki seems to be adding that this data was then published in the West.
So thanks to this data, any Western country should be able to identify Novichoks when they've been used?
That's great. Thanks Iran. But what's your point?
And that means that 'the west' officially and publicly now has the capability of using Novichoks.
And that means that reports that said Novichoks were exclusive to Russia were - wrong. Or perhaps lies.
So anyway ... anyone up for a rational, fact-based, and civil discussion about the topic?
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Also, if it's that crazy-toxic, you only need micro amounts. Even if you're stuck with working with low-yield bench-level amounts (as opposed to pilot plant and production amounts) you could probably scrape enough together to kill someone.
The OTHER thing I find puzzling is the constantly-changing story about WHERE these people were poisoned.
It was on a park bench!
No, it was vehicle air vents!
No, it was at their front door!
I think I've heard five or six versions about that, each one sounding very definitive. By the third time around, I figure they're just making it up as they go along.
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Yeah OK good. Except Russia did it.
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What a sad little nazi.
Heil Hitler!
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So, back to the original topic:
It seems to me that most of what the UK government alleges simply isn't born out by evidence. Not only are "Novichoks" NOT an exclusive product of the former Soviet Union, but I still fail to see Russia's interest in stirring up a hornet's next by poisoning a has-been spy.
People have advanced theories of
To show us that Russia has Novichok poisons but ... didn't we assume that already?
To sow disunity in the west but ... hasn't the opposite occurred?
By mistake but ... wouldn't Russia have predicted this response based on the past several YEARS of coordinated sanctions and diplomat-expulsions?
Also, the information coming out (for example, the multiple alleged locations of the poisoning) is contradictory, and Britain is STILL not following the investigative norms of the international organization which controls and monitors chemical weapons OPCW
This poisoning fits into the deep state's anti-Russian narrative quite nicely. It COULD HAVE been a very adroit head-fake by Russia, but could have equally been a false flag engineered by the UK, USA, or any of the other western states which have an interest in whipping up anti-Russian hysteria.
BTW, I'm just going to leave this hint here that there is a very interesting train of questions that nobody has yet picked up on, and the letter of the topic begins with "i".
If it's still relevant, I'll post in in a few months.
Just saying.
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Quote:
Originally posted by 1KIKI:
Hmmm ... what COULD the point be .... maybe it's that they synthesized actual Novichoks. That once you work out the synthesis steps - helpfully documented by Russia in their theoretical speculation - if you can synthesize small quantities, you can synthesize large quantities. And that if you can synthesize Novichoks in large quantities, you are then also rendered capable of deploying them.
You two are very silly women. THIS is your whole point? That other countries are theoretically capable of making Novichoks? Didn't we establish this at the very beginning? Yes, here's me early in the thread:
Quote:
KPO: Russia is the only country that has had a Novichok program that we know about, but there could, in theory, be others. Yes, I don't think anyone has made a secret of that.
KPO: Yawn. Already addressed this. Yes, theoretically another country could've developed its own Novichok program...
And yet you two are finding new ways to hammer the same tired point. "Other countries are also capable of making Novichoks!" Well, duh. If the Soviet Union could do it in the 1980s, just about any country is technically capable of doing it today.
But that doesn't mean that they have. And it certainly doesn't mean that they would USE THEM - on British soil - on an old Russian spy who worked for Britain.
You two are showing yet again that all you can do is regurgitate propaganda talking points. When someone deviates from your script - like actually agreeing with one of your points - you just repeat your arguments again and again anyway.
You are throwing arguments at strawmen.
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Again comrade sig. Russia did it. You've posted nothing as far as evidence goes that shows they didn't.
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Quote:Not just "technically capable" but actually has synthesized them.
Hmmm ... what COULD the point be .... maybe it's that they synthesized actual Novichoks. That once you work out the synthesis steps - helpfully documented by Russia in their theoretical speculation - if you can synthesize small quantities, you can synthesize large quantities. And that if you can synthesize Novichoks in large quantities, you are then also rendered capable of deploying them.- KIKI
You two are very silly women. THIS is your whole point? That other countries are theoretically capable of making Novichoks? Didn't we establish this at the very beginning? Yes, here's me early in the thread:Quote:
KPO: Russia is the only country that has had a Novichok program that we know about, but there could, in theory, be others. Yes, I don't think anyone has made a secret of that.
KPO: Yawn. Already addressed this. Yes, theoretically another country could've developed its own Novichok program... - KRAPO
And yet you two are finding new ways to hammer the same tired point. "Other countries are also capable of making Novichoks!" Well, duh. If the Soviet Union could do it in the 1980s, just about any country is technically capable of doing it today.
Quote:Well, yes, it means that at least one actually has
But that doesn't mean that they have.
Quote:So we come back to cui bono? [WHO BENEFITS?]
And it certainly doesn't mean that they would USE THEM - on British soil - on an old Russian spy who worked for Britain.
In any crime, there has to be means, motive, and opportunity.
We've established that the "means" is well within many 'state actor' capability. Even Porton Down lab agrees with that concept.
Quote:
Scientists from Porton Down have not been able to establish where the novichok nerve agent used to poison Sergei and Yulia Skripal was made. Gary Aitkenhead, chief executive of the Defence Science and Technology Laboratory (DSTL) at Porton Down, told Sky News they were not yet able to prove it was made in Russia.
He said: "We were able to identify it as novichok, to identify that it was military-grade nerve agent. We have not identified the precise source, but we have provided the scientific info to Government ... It is our job to provide the scientific evidence of what this particular nerve agent is, we identified that it is from this particular family and that it is a military grade, but it is not our job to say where it was manufactured. ... However, he confirmed the substance required "extremely sophisticated methods to create, something only in the capabilities of a state actor".
As far as "opportunity", Skripal and his daughter weren't being guarded, so this is where narrowing down WHERE the poison was applied makes a difference: only some people might have had the "opportunity" to bring the poison to the inside of their front door or to their car vents, for example, but a park bench is much more open. This is why government confusion/ misdirection on this topic is important to the investigation.
And then there is "motive". You have not been able to establish a reasonable motive for the Russian government to poison Skripal.
I'm not saying that a western government did the poisoning. Although some western nations would have motives in that direction, you're correct in saying that there's no evidence proving beyond a reasonable doubt that that's what happened.
OTOH, there's NO EVIDENCE POINTING TO RUSSIA EITHER which proves beyond a reasonable doubt that RUSSIA was the 'state actor' involved, and some evidence (not only lack of motive, but - one would think - very strong disincentives) against this kind of action.
So, there we are.
I think you should withhold judgment until definitive evidence is brought forward. That may mean that this evidence will NEVER be forthcoming,
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27 countries pledge to kick out Russian diplomats over poisoning of ex-spy
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Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Quote:
But that doesn't mean that they have.
Well, yes, it means that at least one actually has
Ha, well I somehow doubt you are trying to cast suspicion for this crime on Iran. Unfortunately for you Sig, if you want to implicate the UK or the US or Israel, then you ARE talking about 'theoretical' Novichok programs.
Quote:
You have not been able to establish a reasonable motive for the Russian government to poison Skripal.
No motive for Russia doing this. Sig, you just embarrass yourself when you say things like this.Sig trying to see how the USA or NATO is to blame for something:
Sig trying to see how Russia is to blame for something:
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Back to cartoons again, KRAPO?
You still haven't come up with a relevant motivation for Russia to piss off the west. GSTRING thinks this was to (somehow) "destabilize" the west, altho the exact opposite seems to have occurred, and you seem to think that - despite years of sanctions and diplomat face-slapping- that Putin somehow made a mistake and couldn't predict the west's reaction.
That's pretty thin stuff, wouldn't you say? I don't care how many cartoons you post, all it does is emphasize that you don't have a realistic scenario to propose.
Like I said: Until more EVIDENCE comes forward (And no, that doesn't include your constant propagandizing) this is a closed topic, as far as I'm concerned.
And BTW, you're STILL missing an interesting question!
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Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Back to cartoons again, KPO?
They're my primary tool for laughing at you.
Quote:
Until more EVIDENCE comes forward (And no, that doesn't include your constant propagandizing)
Accuse me of what I've just accused you of, that's original.
Quote:
And BTW, you're STILL missing an interesting question!
There's plenty of interesting questions about this case. I'm not sure what kind of reasoned discussion one can have with someone whose whole approach is to defend Russia at all costs.
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Quote:I guess that's what you do when you have nothing intelligent to say. I've seen it a lot from GOPers when they were defending GWB. It's revealing that you- a supposedly well-educated, intelligent, tolerant person of the liberal persuasion- would use cartoons as the tool of last resort, just like the reichwing does.
Back to cartoons again, KPO?- SIGNY
They're my primary tool for laughing at you. -KRAPO
Quote:
Until more EVIDENCE comes forward (And no, that doesn't include your constant propagandizing)- SIGNY
Accuse me of what I've just accused you of, that's original.- KRAPO
Hey, I'm not the one pushing a conclusion based on equivocal evidence, like you are.
Quote:Who said it was a "defense" of Russia? Maybe it points TOWARDS Russia.
And BTW, you're STILL missing an interesting question!SIGNY
There's plenty of interesting questions about this case. I'm not sure what kind of reasoned discussion one can have with someone whose whole approach is to defend Russia at all costs.- KRAPO
BTW what ARE the differences between Kosovo and Crimea? You can't seem to come up with any, just like you can't seem to come up with a rational motive for why Russia would - apparently- deliberately piss off the west.
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"Ha, well I somehow doubt you are trying to cast suspicion for this crime on Iran. Unfortunately for you Sig, if you want to implicate the UK or the US or Israel, then you ARE talking about 'theoretical' Novichok programs."
You seem to be confused between actual ability to synthesize Novichoks - which can be done in a small space with proper equipment; and 'programs' - which you seem to think require massive buildings with hundreds of people. The 'program' is the effort to work out the whats and hows. But once you have that, you don't need the 'program' to synthesize Novichoks, just the recipe, the ingredients, and the cookware, so to speak.
So anyway ... anyone up for a rational, fact-based, and civil discussion about the topic?
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Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
I've seen it a lot from GOPers when they were defending GWB. It's revealing that you- a supposedly well-educated, intelligent, tolerant person of the liberal persuasion- would use cartoons as the tool of last resort, just like the reichwing does.
You got me, closet Neocon here. Damn, busted by my use of memes!
Quote:
BTW what ARE the differences between Kosovo and Crimea?
You want to bring that up after you ran from the last thread? Wow, you have a short memory.
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Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
"Ha, well I somehow doubt you are trying to cast suspicion for this crime on Iran. Unfortunately for you Sig, if you want to implicate the UK or the US or Israel, then you ARE talking about 'theoretical' Novichok programs."
You seem to be confused between actual ability to synthesize Novichoks - which can be done in a small space with proper equipment; and 'programs' - which you seem to think require massive buildings with hundreds of people. The 'program' is the effort to work out the whats and hows. But once you have that, you don't need the 'program' to synthesize Novichoks, just the recipe, the ingredients, and the cookware, so to speak.
All of this rambling seems to be you taking issue with my use of the word 'program'. Like making, storing and weaponising Novichok compounds is so trivial that a couple of dudes in a government lab could do it one afternoon, and that would be the extent of the 'program'.
Well, you don't know what you're talking about. But thanks for weighing in.
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Quote:
Originally posted by kpo:Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
I've seen it a lot from GOPers when they were defending GWB. It's revealing that you- a supposedly well-educated, intelligent, tolerant person of the liberal persuasion- would use cartoons as the tool of last resort, just like the reichwing does.
You got me, closet Neocon here. Damn, busted by my use of memes!Quote:
BTW what ARE the differences between Kosovo and Crimea?
You want to bring that up after you ran from the last thread? Wow, you have a short memory.
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It’s almost as if her/their main purpose is to agitate, lay down a searchable text trail of contrariness.
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Quote:I'm glad you finally recognized that anyone who is constantly jonesing for war - like you do- is, by definition, a neocon.
I've seen it a lot from GOPers when they were defending GWB. It's revealing that you- a supposedly well-educated, intelligent, tolerant person of the liberal persuasion- would use cartoons as the tool of last resort, just like the reichwing does. - SIGNY
You got me, closet Neocon here. Damn, busted by my use of memes!- KPO
Quote:I don't recall ever "running" from any thread. I DID say that I'd have to get back to some posts later, because .... you might have noticed ... I'm not posting as much as I used to. Right now, I'm just really busy. So link that thread, or remind me three weeks from now, or so. Maybe I'll have more time then.
BTW what ARE the differences between Kosovo and Crimea? - SIGNY
You want to bring that up after you ran from the last thread? Wow, you have a short memory.- KRAPO
Quote:Huh?
It’s almost as if her/their main purpose is to agitate, lay down a searchable text trail of contrariness.- GSTRING
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Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
I'm glad you finally recognized that anyone who is constantly jonesing for war - like you do- is, by definition, a neocon.
What if I just cheerlead for Putin's wars, is that ok?
Quote:
I'm not posting as much as I used to. Right now, I'm just really busy.
Yeah, but this is also, famously, what you say when you get cornered in an argument. Like earlier in this thread when I challenged you on your assertions that Kiev started the war in Donbas:
SIGNY: "This will take more time than I have to answer..."
SIGNY: "Again, this will take more time than I have right now..."
SIGNY: "Again, will take more time than I have..."
The thing is, after running from these questions that you can't answer, you'll be back on these boards in a few months making the same bullshit claims.
Quote:
So link that thread
Yes, a case in point: http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=60199&p=2
You asked me then what were the differences between Kosovo and Crimea. My answer:
Quote:
In Kosovo we have:
1. Systematic war crimes - massacres, ethnic cleansing, etc
2. Carried out by government forces
3. Confirmed by UN reports, ICC rulings, etc.
In Crimea we have:
1. No war crimes committed by the Ukrainian government, ever. But some hype, manufactured scare stories and propaganda
2. Spread by Russia
3. Believed by idiots.
You weren't able to respond to this at all, and kiki tried to by doctoring my words and linking things that didn't say what she claimed, and then finally pivoting to the Iraq war
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Real success for Russia comes at the moment when the listener suspends disbelief sufficiently to start to consider whether all they know to be real is in fact a lie -- and that Russia might have a point. Russia's suggestions that the British government might have carried out the attack in its own city make a classic case study.
Trying to murder residents of your own country to make a political point is a nasty habit that Britain grew out of several hundred years ago. So, the idea that the UK might be to blame for an attack of this kind is one that could only come from Russia, where murder in the interests of the state or its ruling elite still lies comfortably in the mainstream of political practice.
Nevertheless, the fact that this suggestion is now repeated not only by Russian trolls (and ambassadors and ministers) but also by real UK citizens represents a significant achievement for Russian disinformation.
The answer, as always, is to take Russian bluster for what it is: a desperate attempt to shift the blame once the realization has set in, as it did in the case of MH17, that Russia has made a serious mistake and earned not just the disapproval but the disgust of the civilized world.
Russia will continue to throw up wild accusations, nonsensical conspiracy theories, insults, and threats. But for most intelligent adults in the rest of the world, a swift reality check will be all that is needed to press the mental mute button on Moscow.
www.cnn.com/2018/04/06/opinions/why-russia-laugh-world-giles-opinion-i
ntl/index.html
The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly
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Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
"Ha, well I somehow doubt you are trying to cast suspicion for this crime on Iran. Unfortunately for you Sig, if you want to implicate the UK or the US or Israel, then you ARE talking about 'theoretical' Novichok programs."
You seem to be confused between actual ability to synthesize Novichoks - which can be done in a small space with proper equipment; and 'programs' - which you seem to think require massive buildings with hundreds of people. The 'program' is the effort to work out the whats and hows. But once you have that, you don't need the 'program' to synthesize Novichoks, just the recipe, the ingredients, and the cookware, so to speak.
Quote:Thanks for misrepresenting what I posted. Again.
Originally posted by kpo:
All of this rambling seems to be you taking issue with my use of the word 'program'. Like making, storing and weaponising Novichok compounds is so trivial that a couple of dudes in a government lab could do it one afternoon, and that would be the extent of the 'program'.
Well, you don't know what you're talking about. But thanks for weighing in.
I clearly made the distinction between a 'program', which is the effort to work out the what and how, which requires a lot of science, and trail and error; and (potentially) creating an arsenal - and the actual synthesis, once the what and how have been completed.
The actual synthesis is trivial, once you have worked out the process you need. And to carry out this particular poisoning (assuming Novichoks were used, and that's in doubt) you don't need to make entire arsenals. You only need to make a few milligrams. That's about the amount in roughly 10 grains of table salt. An isolation hood, a lab bench, the precursors, are all that's needed.
Even a couple of Iranian research scientists could make 5 different Novichoks on a lab bench.
So anyway ... anyone up for a rational, fact-based, and civil discussion about the topic?
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And what does that have to do with what I said, that UK or US or Israeli secret Novichok programs are theoretically possible but pure speculation?
It's one of your many lovable foibles, 1kik, that when you have nothing else you attempt to quibble over some technicality.
Are you attempting to argue that a country other than Russia could have poisoned the Skripals with a Novichok, but that doesn't mean that they had a Novichok 'program'?
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Your speculation about western government Novichok PROGRAMS is not my speculation.
At this point, with the synthesis all worked out, nobody needs a PROGRAM to synthesize milligram quantities. The synthesis of milligram quantities is now perfectly within the grasp of any government, WITHOUT an extant PROGRAM. I don't know how I could be any more clear.
If you repeat this argument, you're either seriously idiotic, or a troll. I'm voting troll.
And thanks for lying about my posts.
AGAIN.
So anyway ... anyone up for a rational, fact-based, and civil discussion about the topic?
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Quote:Yanno, SECOND, that is an EXCELLENT place to start any train of thought: with no preconceptions. But. moving on ...
Real success for Russia comes at the moment when the listener suspends disbelief sufficiently to start to consider whether all they know to be real is in fact a lie --
Quote:When was that? Had the UK grown out of murdering is residents to make a political point during The Troubles?
Trying to murder residents of your own country to make a political point is a nasty habit that Britain grew out of several hundred years ago.
Quote:Oh baloney. The United States and NATO quite comfortably kill their own civilians for political purposes. How about Operation Gladio?
So, the idea that the UK might be to blame for an attack of this kind is one that could only come from Russia, where murder in the interests of the state or its ruling elite still lies comfortably in the mainstream of political practice.
Also, this poisoning fits very nicely into the NATO narrative, not so well into the Russian agenda. (At least, nobody here has been able to explain how this meets Russian objectives).
Quote:Or maybe people are just waking up to the idea that their beloved leaders do, in fact, engage in false flag operations?
Nevertheless, the fact that this suggestion is now repeated not only by Russian trolls (and ambassadors and ministers) but also by real UK citizens represents a significant achievement for Russian disinformation.
Quote:Yes, the Russians did attempt to shift blame and propose a number of alternate scenarios. But that is why you have to rely on EVIDENCE, not prejudice, belief, and hysteria to sort out the truth. That's all I've ever advocated for: Not being stampeded by government propounded hysteria, but slowing down, and withholding judgment until more EVIDENCE comes to light.
The answer, as always, is to take Russian bluster for what it is: a desperate attempt to shift the blame once the realization has set in, as it did in the case of MH17, that Russia has made a serious mistake and earned not just the disapproval but the disgust of the civilized world.
Quote:AS WILL THE USA.
Russia will continue to throw up wild accusations, nonsensical conspiracy theories, insults, and threats.
Saddam's WMD anyone??
Quote:And that is why you should be insisting on EVIDENCE, not claims, accusations, counter-claims and hysteria.
But for most intelligent adults in the rest of the world, a swift reality check will be all that is needed to press the mental mute button on Moscow.
How could you have worked you way thru the Iraq WMD blitzkrieg of misinformation? Whatever procedure would have worked for that should help you work your way through other misinformation, which- let's face it- comes from both sides.
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Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake
America is an oligarchy
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Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Oh baloney. The United States and NATO quite comfortably kill their own civilians for political purposes. How about Operation Gladio?
Another classic Signy line: "The West does this (whatever Russia is being accused of) ALL THE TIME. See this alleged example from 50 years ago..."
-------------------------------------------------------
"Objective truths are established by evidence. Personal truths by faith. Political truths by incessant repetition."
Russia's and Assad's War Crimes in Syria - http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=60278
Syrian regime collusion with ISIS - http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=60521
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Well, Operation Gladio went on for DECADES before anyone wised up to what was happening. I wonder what people will be saying in 40 years time about today? It's not like there haven't been suspicious deaths here since then.
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Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake
America is an oligarchy
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Quote:Operation Gladio was to kill Russians that conquer Europe. The Europeans were not about to tell the Russians ahead of time where the hidden arms caches were located in Belgium, Denmark, France, Netherlands, etc. That would completely ruin the surprise death of Russian invaders!
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Well, Operation Gladio went on for DECADES before anyone wised up to what was happening. I wonder what people will be saying in 40 years time about today? It's not like there haven't been suspicious deaths here since then.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Gladio
The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly
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If I bother, I may post this is a new thread.
But I read an interesting potential reason for all the un-evidenced anti-Russia hysteria, swiftly followed by un-meritted economic punishment. (And you'll notice none of this involves the UN because, frankly, that didn't work out so well for little bush. You actually have to bring evidence in front of that body to make your case.) And it's not to bring down the Russian economy as a whole. Nope. It's to dwindle the fortunes of the Russian oligarchs specifically, and create a fifth column against Putin.
That makes sense of the endless and really stupid and silly claims about RUSSIA ! that sound like kindergärtners making up ghost stories.
Oh, and another thing I've noticed in our 'free' press. Every time they refer to the Syrian government, they call it a 'regime'. There's no mention of the fact that Assad was democratically elected, before the US decided to topple yet another democratic government. Nor do the papers mention the fact that the UN body still recognizes the government as the legitimate representative of the country.
But hey, let's not call our media 'propagandists' for endlessly calling the elected Syrian government a regime, or for repeatedly somehow failing to notice the lack actual evidence for the many claims made about RUSSIA ! . Because calling our media propagandists would just be rude.
So anyway ... anyone up for a rational, fact-based, and civil discussion about the topic?
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SECOND: I take it that you didn't even other to read the synopsis of the 1992 BBC documentary, which has not (yet) been scrubbed for political correctness like Wikipedia has?
Quote:Really SECOND, you are SUCH an ASSiduous researcher when it comes to Trump Trivia. I mean, you just can't get enough of it! But when it comes to learning something fundamental about how our government works, but which might be unpleasant, you wimp out?
This BBC series is about a far-right secret army, operated by the CIA and MI6 through NATO, which killed hundreds of innocent Europeans and attempted to blame the deaths on Baader Meinhof, Red Brigades and other left wing groups.
You probably think that you're deeply cynical and wise to the evils of our government, but you're just a naive child.
The documentary is very slow, but if you want to race thru to the bombings etc conducted by Gladio, jump ahead to about 49 minutes.
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Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake
America is an oligarchy
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http://www.atimes.com/article/russia-exposes-british-lies-skripal-trai
l-leads-us/
he sensational case of the poisoning of the ex-MI6 agent and former Russian military intelligence colonel, Sergei Skripal on March 4 in Salisbury, UK, is becoming curiouser and curiouser. Moscow is strongly refuting British allegations of Russian involvement in the poisoning of Skripal. An engrossing plot in big-power politics is also unfolding. There is stuff here for a Le Carre novel.
Are we witnessing a replay of the false flag Gulf of Tonkin attack of August 1964, the imaginary “incident” concocted by the US military to provide legal and political justification for deploying American forces in South Vietnam and for commencing open warfare against North Vietnam?
To recap, Britain alleged a military grade nerve agent of a type known as Novichok was used in Salisbury. It was originally developed in the former Soviet Union, and, therefore, Moscow’s hand – possibly, even President Vladimir Putin’s hand – was “highly likely”.
Moscow has maintained, on the other hand, that it had destroyed all its chemical weapons and said the Organization for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons (OPCW) investigation verified this.
The British allegation quickly morphed into a large-scale expulsion of Russian diplomats (over 100 of them) by western capitals, under heavy pressure from Washington and London. The US alone expelled 60 Russian diplomats, while Britain expelled 23.
Britain is studiously ignoring the Russian requests for samples of the chemical agent used in the Salisbury attack and for giving consular access to the ex-spy’s daughter Yulia. Meanwhile, Britain instead approached the OPCW to investigate.
The OPCW has refused to confirm or deny the country of origin of the chemical agent used in the Salisbury attack.
There is egg on PM Theresa May’s face.
On April 18, Moscow disclosed that it has handed over to the OPCW alleged proof that the Novichok agent purportedly used in the Salisbury attack actually happens to be patented as a chemical weapon in 2015 in the US and produced in that country. (By the way, unlike Russia, the US is yet to destroy its chemical weapon stockpiles, as required under the Chemical Weapons Convention of 1997.)
Now, not only the British government but Washington too has some explaining to do. Participating in the BBC’s Hard Talk program this week with Stephen Sacker, Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov punched hard, saying “‘highly likely’ is a new invention of British diplomacy to describe why they punish people – because these people are ‘highly likely’ guilty. Like in ‘Alice in Wonderland’ by Lewis Carroll when he described a trial… and the King said: ‘Let’s ask the jury’ and the Queen shouted: ‘No jury! Sentence first! Verdict afterwards!’ That’s the logic of ‘highly likely.’”
Britain is steadily edging away from the Skripal case, hoping, perhaps, that the matter will die down. But will Moscow let Britain off the hook? The Russians also seem to be holding back on some explosive information pointing toward alleged complicity by the US in this affair.
Simply put, could the Salisbury attack have been an Anglo-American joint covert operation undertaken with the ulterior motive to ratchet up tensions between the West and Russia? Indeed, it meshed well with the Russia-collusion campaign against Trump.
The Washington Post reported on Monday that the former National Security Advisor HR McMaster might have hoodwinked President Donald Trump into approving the expulsion under the wrong notion that similar numbers of expulsions by European allies was in the pipeline. In the event though, the Europeans made only token expulsions.
Earlier, McMaster tried to stop Trump from congratulating Putin on his big victory in the Russian election on March 18 in a phone conversation (where they discussed a possible summit meeting in a near future).
If the Skripal incident was McMaster’s swan song, the indefatigable Russophobe probably hoped to kill two birds with one stone – push Russia’s relations wi
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The government silence is deafening.
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If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake
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Some say ....
SKIPAL'S CONNECTION TO THE STEELE DOSSIER
Quote:
Washington, D.C. – There are no coincidences when it comes to deep politics. Regardless of the propaganda operations undertaken to mask the truth, there is always much more taking place than the general public is allowed to see. Take for instance the case of poisoned Russian double agent Col Sergei Skripal.
The western public has been led by the mass media to believe that Skripal and his daughter were poisoned by Russia as payback for his betrayal of Russia. However, a close look at the facts brings about some astounding conclusions. The poisoning was likely carried out by western actors operating with an intention to either scare or kill Skripal after it was revealed that his handler was one Pablo Miller, an MI6 agent the UK claims is a diplomat, and who was also a colleague in both MI6 and Orbis Intelligence of Trump dossier author, Christopher Steele.
It is important to remember that Orbis Intelligence is Christopher Steele’s company that was paid by the Clinton campaign to create a dossier of opposition research that was used as a basis for FISA warrants on the Trump campaign. In fact, as the New Yorker reported, Steele’s position itself within MI6 likely involved direct contact with Skripal:
“Steele had spent more than twenty years in M.I.6, most of it focusing on Russia. For three years, in the nineties, he spied in Moscow under diplomatic cover. Between 2006 and 2009, he ran the service’s Russia desk, at its headquarters, in London. He was fluent in Russian and widely considered to be an expert on the country.”
Moon of Alabama reported that “Steele was an MI6 undercover agent in Moscow around the time when Skripal was recruited and handed over Russian secrets to the MI6. He also ran the MI6 Russia desk so anything about Skripal will have passed through him. It is very likely that they personally knew each other. Pablo Miller, who worked for Steele’s private company, lived in the same town as Skripal and they seem to have been friends since Miller had recruited him.”
Orbis Business Intelligence was co-founded by Steele and would employ Skripal’s handler, Pablo Miller, as soon as he left MI6.
Further indicative of something likely suspicious afoot, a D Notice, which effectively bans British media outlets and journalists from mentioning Pablo Miller, was put in place on the day of the Salisbury chemical attack.
Former British diplomat Craig Murray posted a screenshot of a tweet that he called a “vital confirmation from Channel 4 News (serial rebel Alex Thomson) of the D Notice in place on mention of Pablo Miller.”
Additionally, although declining to name him, almost certainly due to the D Notice, the British Telegraph reported on Pablo Miller doing “consultancy work” for Steele’s Orbis:
** A security consultant who has worked for the company that compiled the controversial dossier on Donald Trump was close to the Russian double agent poisoned last weekend, it has been claimed.
The consultant, who The Telegraph is declining to identify, lived close to Col Skripal and is understood to have known him for some time.
…
The Telegraph understands that Col Skripal moved to Salisbury in 2010 in a spy swap and became close to a security consultant employed by Christopher Steele, who compiled the Trump dossier.
The British security consultant, according to a LinkedIn social network account that was removed from the internet in the past few days, is also based in Salisbury.
On the same LinkedIn account, the man listed consultancy work with Orbis Business Intelligence, according to reports.**
Clearly, Miller or someone else attempted to cover up the connection to Steele by editing his LinkedIn profile. The man that the Telegraph declined to identify was later named by Meduza as Pablo Miller:
** Pablo Miller, who at the time was posing as Antonio Alvarez de Hidalgo and working in Britain’s embassy in Tallinn. Russia’s Federal Security Service says Miller was actually an undercover MI6 agentNOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
The British government is making ever stranger claims about the poisoning.
They estimate that the Skripals were exposed to 100uL of liquid. That's a lot of volume! How do you get that volume to stick to a doorknob without running off? Unless you smear it on like peanut butter - but then, it's not a liquid. And you'd see that much peanut butter.
SECOND is a troll because it constantly misrepresents what people post, fails to address their actual positions, and resorts to personal attacks when its brain isn't working (which is most of the time).
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Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
The British government is making ever stranger claims about the poisoning.
They estimate that the Skripals were exposed to 100uL of liquid. That's a lot of volume! How do you get that volume to stick to a doorknob without running off? Unless you smear it on like peanut butter - but then, it's not a liquid. And you'd see that much peanut butter.
SECOND is a troll because it constantly misrepresents what people post, fails to address their actual positions, and resorts to personal attacks when its brain isn't working (which is most of the time)….1kiki
Yeah, the Russians did it.
JJ
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The British government is making ever stranger claims about the poisoning.
They estimate that the Skripals were exposed to 100uL of liquid. That's a lot of volume! How do you get that volume to stick to a doorknob without running off? Unless you smear it on like peanut butter - but then, it's not a liquid. And you'd see that much peanut butter.
SECOND is a troll because it constantly misrepresents what people post, fails to address their actual positions, and resorts to personal attacks when its brain isn't working (which is most of the time).
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Quote:
Originally posted by JJ:
Yeah, the Russians did it.
They have the bigger motive and it's in their budget range (cheap). Yeah, money, logic and history says they surely did.
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"They have the bigger motive"
Such as?
"it's in their budget range"
Which means it's in everyone else's as as well. That's a serious logic-fail there, GEEBERS.
Skripal left the Main Foreign Intelligence Service in 1999 with a maximum 10-year ban on traveling abroad. He's been living in Britain since 2010. Anything he might have done or known vis-a-vis Russia is roughly 20 years old. That's just about prehistoric in intelligence terms, where timeliness is everything.
And, links for your claims.
SECOND is a troll because it constantly misrepresents what people post, fails to address their actual positions, and resorts to personal attacks when its brain isn't working (which is most of the time).
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Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
"They have the bigger motive"
Such as?
He's a traitor to the Motherland
Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
"it's in their budget range"
Which means it's in everyone else's as as well. That's a serious logic-fail there, GEEBERS.
He's not a traitor to "everyone." That's an epic lack of logic, Kookie.
Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
Skripal left the Main Foreign Intelligence Service in 1999 with a maximum 10-year ban on traveling abroad. He's been living in Britain since 2010. Anything he might have done or known vis-a-vis Russia is roughly 20 years old. That's just about prehistoric in intelligence terms, where timeliness is everything.
And, links for your claims.
Vengeance, retribution, payback, they don't have expiration dates. If Putin will have journalists killed, he'd send a message by having an old traitor killed too.
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