Real World Event Discussions
Draining The Swamp
POSTED BY: SHINYGOODGUY
UPDATED: Friday, June 13, 2025 02:56
VIEWED: 32850
PAGE 6 of 29
Thursday, October 19, 2017 10:30 PM
There might be those who think along the lines that one party is the root of all evil. I think that person or persons should be dealt with on an individual basis.
But to try and high-jack a thread because you don't agree with a person's POV; or YOU feel that it doesn't fairly bring into question, or fairly deal, with the topic at hand.....well, I suggest that if it offends your sensibilities to that degree, then, by all means, do not contribute to the thread in question. Boycott the thread, if you will, in protest.
Several here have made contributions that I would consider off-topic, but I have not asked them to leave or refrain from offering responses. Might I suggest that if you feel a response/contribution to this thread is off-topic/not to your liking; then, don't respond to that particular response. That person or persons will get the hint and choose to either stay on topic, or not offer up a response. Again, it is only a suggestion. You can do whatever floats your boat. Actually, I'll change my response in mid-answer: Go ahead, suggest away! Although I don't agree with you that this has become a Greatest Failures TrumpFest; you have every right to try and divert contributions to another thread. FEEL FREE TO DO SO!!!
SGG
Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
This is turning into a "Trump's Greatest Failures" thread, but we already have one of those http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=61905 and I think that title BEST expresses the topic of how people of ALL political persuasions see Trump's greatest failures, so I'm going to put my opinions about Trump's failures in there.
I just want to make a comment to partisans of both stripes here: If you're a partisan - in other words, a die-hard defender of your party, everyone in it, and everything that it does - well I hope that description is enough to make you see the problem with that POV.
But just it case it doesn't, I'm going to beat the point to death a little bit more: You're making the mistake of thinking that just because you think one party is "evil" that must mean that the other party is "good". But these are politicians. I doubt that you can find one honest one in any random set of 100, in either party. I acknowledge that there are a few more "good" politicians in the Democratic Party than in the GOP, but I can name them on the fingers of one hand; they make up a vanishingly small number no matter which party you look at and none of them achieve any significant, systemic, lasting benefit for the average person anyway. You have to judge the party as a whole.
******
In KPO's thread about "The State of Freedom in Russia", he acknowledges that he's completely uninterested in "the state of freedom" in any other nation BESIDES Russia, and that includes the state of freedom in his own nation (Britain) and the state of freedom in the USA.
I asked him what accounted for his laser focus on Russia.
There are a lot of venal answers to that question, but in my view there is only one legitimate answer, only one reason why someone should focus on Russian events and policies, even to the exclusion of events in and policies of your own nation, and that is if you see Russia as such an immediate existential threat that it requires ditching every other concern, to hell with civil liberties, the deficit, and the marketplace! It's "all hands on deck and man battle stations!"
When I look at the threat posed by Russia, I simply don't see the need for that kind of response. The only REAL threat that they pose is de-dollarization (forcing the world off the petrodollar, which has given us an open credit card with the rest of the world since 1973), and even in THAT case, the answer isn't military or political, it should consist of us minding our financial matters better.
In fact, when I look at every single major problem that the USANOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Thursday, October 19, 2017 11:12 PM
Quote:I had conjured "Draining the Swamp" translated to "Trump's Greatest Achievements" and "Trump's Greatest Failures" was the opposite.
Originally posted by SHINYGOODGUY:Quote:There might be those who think along the lines that one party is the root of all evil. I think that person or persons should be dealt with on an individual basis.
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
This is turning into a "Trump's Greatest Failures" thread, but we already have one of those http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=61905 and I think that title BEST expresses the topic of how people of ALL political persuasions see Trump's greatest failures, so I'm going to put my opinions about Trump's failures in there.
I just want to make a comment to partisans of both stripes here: If you're a partisan - in other words, a die-hard defender of your party, everyone in it, and everything that it does - well I hope that description is enough to make you see the problem with that POV.
But just it case it doesn't, I'm going to beat the point to death a little bit more: You're making the mistake of thinking that just because you think one party is "evil" that must mean that the other party is "good". But these are politicians. I doubt that you can find one honest one in any random set of 100, in either party. I acknowledge that there are a few more "good" politicians in the Democratic Party than in the GOP, but I can name them on the fingers of one hand; they make up a vanishingly small number no matter which party you look at and none of them achieve any significant, systemic, lasting benefit for the average person anyway. You have to judge the party as a whole.
***
In fact, when I look at every single major problem that the USA has, from ...
staggering wealth inequality to
massive private debt to
potentially unstable banks to
the loss of the petrodollar to
a failed health care policy to
environmental collapse to
loss of manufacturing to
completely unbalanced trade to
illegal immigrants to
disunited public to
loss of commonsense values to
unemployment to
loss of civil liberties to
(add more here) ...
every single problem in the USA was caused by our own politicians.
It wasn't "Democrats" OR "Republicans", it was BOTH of them. Each party, in its own way, got us to this point of failure. Democrats try to put a sweet syrup on their defections while Republicans champion their actions as rightful policy, but in the end it took the combined effort of both parties, working for decades and decades, to get us to this point.
At least, that's how I see it.
But to try and high-jack a thread because you don't agree with a person's POV; or YOU feel that it doesn't fairly bring into question, or fairly deal, with the topic at hand.....well, I suggest that if it offends your sensibilities to that degree, then, by all means, do not contribute to the thread in question. Boycott the thread, if you will, in protest.
Several here have made contributions that I would consider off-topic, but I have not asked them to leave or refrain from offering responses. Might I suggest that if you feel a response/contribution to this thread is off-topic/not to your liking; then, don't respond to that particular response. That person or persons will get the hint and choose to either stay on topic, or not offer up a response. Again, it is only a suggestion. You can do whatever floats your boat. Actually, I'll change my response in mid-answer: Go ahead, suggest away! Although I don't agree with you that this has become a Greatest Failures TrumpFest; you have every right to try and divert contributions to another thread. FEEL FREE TO DO SO!!!
SGG
I am interested in your definition of Establishment, and why you feel it a sticking point. I'm lost about your viewpoint.
I also think that you
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Thursday, October 19, 2017 11:36 PM
Of course, Trump is the best president ever.
Establishment in terms of government is simply foundations, and tried and true formation of public institutions. As to why I feel it is a sticking point - just from the many times I read the word in responses and comments by various individuals with quote marks.
Plus the response by some in the news talking also using quote marks in their rhetoric - as though established norms within our society are negative enemies of the people at large. Yes, there are those that take advantage of the system and use the masses as so much guinea pigs. But, like in any society, there are good and bad actors.
SGG
Quote:
Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:Quote:
Originally posted by SHINYGOODGUY:
There might be those who think along the lines that one party is the root of all evil. I think that person or persons should be dealt with on an individual basis.
But to try and high-jack a thread because you don't agree with a person's POV; or YOU feel that it doesn't fairly bring into question, or fairly deal, with the topic at hand.....well, I suggest that if it offends your sensibilities to that degree, then, by all means, do not contribute to the thread in question. Boycott the thread, if you will, in protest.
Several here have made contributions that I would consider off-topic, but I have not asked them to leave or refrain from offering responses. Might I suggest that if you feel a response/contribution to this thread is off-topic/not to your liking; then, don't respond to that particular response. That person or persons will get the hint and choose to either stay on topic, or not offer up a response. Again, it is only a suggestion. You can do whatever floats your boat. Actually, I'll change my response in mid-answer: Go ahead, suggest away! Although I don't agree with you that this has become a Greatest Failures TrumpFest; you have every right to try and divert contributions to another thread. FEEL FREE TO DO SO!!!
SGGQuote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
This is turning into a "Trump's Greatest Failures" thread, but we already have one of those http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?bid=18&tid=61905 and I think that title BEST expresses the topic of how people of ALL political persuasions see Trump's greatest failures, so I'm going to put my opinions about Trump's failures in there.
I just want to make a comment to partisans of both stripes here: If you're a partisan - in other words, a die-hard defender of your party, everyone in it, and everything that it does - well I hope that description is enough to make you see the problem with that POV.
But just it case it doesn't, I'm going to beat the point to death a little bit more: You're making the mistake of thinking that just because you think one party is "evil" that must mean that the other party is "good". But these are politicians. I doubt that you can find one honest one in any random set of 100, in either party. I acknowledge that there are a few more "good" politicians in the Democratic Party than in the GOP, but I can name them on the fingers of one hand; they make up a vanishingly small number no matter which party you look at and none of them achieve any significant, systemic, lasting benefit for the average person anyway. You have to judge the party as a whole.
******
In KPO's thread about "The State of Freedom in Russia", he acknowledges that he's completely uninterested in "the state of freedom" in any other nation BESIDES Russia, and that includes the state of freedom in his own nation (Britain) and the state of freedom in the USA.
I asked him what accounted for his laser focus on Russia.
There are a lot of venal answers to that question, but in my view there is only one legitimate answer, only one reason why someone should focus on Russian events and policies, even to the exclusion of events in andNOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | PERMALINK | TOP | HOME
Friday, October 20, 2017 5:31 AM
Quote:Here is a court knocking down a Trump-based idea used by his Justice Department in a case: "If excludable aliens were not protected by even the substantive component of constitutional due process, as the government appears to argue, we do not see why the United States government could not torture or summarily execute them. … [W]e do not believe that our Constitution could permit persons living in the United States—whether they can be admitted for permanent residence or not—to be subjected to any government action without limit."
Originally posted by SHINYGOODGUY:
Plus the response by some in the news talking also using quote marks in their rhetoric - as though established norms within our society are negative enemies of the people at large.
www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/jurisprudence/2017/10/the_jus
tice_department_s_radical_new_anti_abortion_stance_echoes_dred_scott.html
The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly
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Friday, October 20, 2017 7:11 AM
George W. Bush comes out of retirement to deliver a veiled rebuke of Trump
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/george-w-bush-comes-out-of-ret
irement-to-deliver-a-veiled-rebuke-of-trump/2017/10/19/3b7881ea-b4ec-11e7-be94-fabb0f1e9ffb_story.html?utm_term=.4c7b337a92d3
Former president George W. Bush on Thursday delivered a rare political
speech in which he warned of threats to American democracy and a decay
of civic engagement, a message that was interpreted as a rebuke of
President Trump’s divisive leadership style.
... oooOO}{OOooo ...
Well, we elected a man who isn't a politician/statesman, who is seriously
ignorant about governance, & doesn't want to learn. We did it. We elected
him while I'm sure most of us knew he was grossly unqualified for the job.
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Friday, October 20, 2017 7:13 AM
SHINY, you wrote a number of comments on what you perceive is my attempted "hijacking" of this thread.
Quote:And BTW neither did I.
Before I answer your veiled attempt at "high-jacking" this thread, I want to ask you and your cohort something .... But to try and high-jack a thread because you don't agree with a person's POV; or YOU feel that it doesn't fairly bring into question, or fairly deal, with the topic at hand ... Several here have made contributions that I would consider off-topic, but I have not asked them to leave or refrain from offering responses.
I was simply reacting to some posts that had to do with Trump and not with "Draining The Swamp", specifically
Quote:and
Forbes ... How to be President : the Art of the Deal ... are the same thing for Trump. Hmmm?
Quote:which I felt really belonged in a thread about Trump's failings, not about "draining the swamp"
The 12 most damning Bob Corker quotes about Donald Trump http://www.cnn.com/2017/10/09/politics/trump-corker-quotes/index.html
(CNN) — Bob Corker went off on Donald Trump Sunday night. For 25 minutes, the Tennessee Republican senator unloaded lots (and lots) of pent-up frustrations to New York Times' reporter Jonathan Martin. ...
Now, about "draining the swamp". What IS "the swamp", anyway? IMHO it's those who represent a particular industry, rotating in and out of government, industry leadership positions, and lobbying. Those who excessively take into account the wishes of the 0.01% over the rest. Those who keep secrets from people so that they don't have a chance of evaluating the policy options before them, and so directing their representatives in government appropriately. in other words, those who do other than honestly and fairly representing/ working for the people who voted for them. SECOND was heading in that direction by suggesting that Presidents come and go, but the Pentagon (and its interests) always remain.
Quote:I agree with one statement and disagree with other.
There might be those who think along the lines that one party is the root of all evil. I think that person or persons should be dealt with on an individual basis. -SHINY
Quote:
I am interested in your definition of Establishment, and why you feel it a sticking point. I'm lost about your viewpoint.
The reason why I call it "the establishment" is because the parties have "established" power structures. Each has a central committee thru which flows official party support in the form of ad campaigns, vote rigging, strategic planning, "get out the vote" efforts etc. But these official party structures depend on reliable sources of MONEY, and that's why they end up supporting the 0.01%. ("Dirty") Debbie Wasserman-Schultz and the party establishment was funded by campaign contributions from Soros, big pharma, intl banks etc, and Hillary was a big contribution-getter.
But don't get me wrong: the RNC is just as corrupt as the DNC, they just represent a different sector of the moneyed class: Koch bros etc.
Quote:See above. The party does its best to engineer which of their candidates make it thru the primaries. Occasionally an actual honest representative makes it thru, but usually because they can garner a lot of small contributions from across the USA and forgo establishment party support.
SIG's assertion that Party must be evaluated as a whole and not look at select goals and achievements of leaders within the Party is where she loses me, and seems to me to contribute to the Establishment problem.
-----------
Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake
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Friday, October 20, 2017 12:41 PM
Decidedly so.
SGG
Quote:
Originally posted by Oonjerah:
George W. Bush comes out of retirement to deliver a veiled rebuke of Trump
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/george-w-bush-comes-out-of-ret
irement-to-deliver-a-veiled-rebuke-of-trump/2017/10/19/3b7881ea-b4ec-11e7-be94-fabb0f1e9ffb_story.html?utm_term=.4c7b337a92d3
Former president George W. Bush on Thursday delivered a rare political
speech in which he warned of threats to American democracy and a decay
of civic engagement, a message that was interpreted as a rebuke of
President Trump’s divisive leadership style.
... oooOO}{OOooo ...
Well, we elected a man who isn't a politician/statesman, who is seriously
ignorant about governance, & doesn't want to learn. We did it. We elected
him while I'm sure most of us knew he was grossly unqualified for the job.
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Friday, October 20, 2017 1:05 PM
Quote:SGG, have you visited the Bladerunner thread?
Originally posted by SHINYGOODGUY:
Decidedly so.
SGG
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Friday, October 20, 2017 1:39 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by SHINYGOODGUY:Quote:Of course, Trump is the best president ever.
Originally posted by JEWELSTAITEFAN:Quote:I am interested in your definition of Establishment, and why you feel it a sticking point. I'm lost about your viewpoint.
Originally posted by SHINYGOODGUY:
There might be those who think along the lines that one party is the root of all evil. I think that person or persons should be dealt with on an individual basis.
But to try and high-jack a thread because you don't agree with a person's POV; or YOU feel that it doesn't fairly bring into question, or fairly deal, with the topic at hand.....well, I suggest that if it offends your sensibilities to that degree, then, by all means, do not contribute to the thread in question. Boycott the thread, if you will, in protest.
Several here have made contributions that I would consider off-topic, but I have not asked them to leave or refrain from offering responses. Might I suggest that if you feel a response/contribution to this thread is off-topic/not to your liking; then, don't respond to that particular response. That person or persons will get the hint and choose to either stay on topic, or not offer up a response. Again, it is only a suggestion. You can do whatever floats your boat. Actually, I'll change my response in mid-answer: Go ahead, suggest away! Although I don't agree with you that this has become a Greatest Failures TrumpFest; you have every right to try and divert contributions to another thread. FEEL FREE TO DO SO!!!
SGG
Establishment in terms of government is simply foundations, and tried and true formation of public institutions. As to why I feel it is a sticking point - just from the many times I read the word in responses and comments by various individuals with quote marks.
Plus the response by some in the news talking also using quote marks in their rhetoric - as though established norms within our society are negative enemies of the people at large. Yes, there are those that take advantage of the system and use the masses as so much guinea pigs. But, like in any society, there are good and bad actors.
SGG
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Friday, October 20, 2017 1:46 PM
Exactly, in terms of what constitutes "the swamp," my point exactly
Quote:
Now, about "draining the swamp". What IS "the swamp", anyway? IMHO it's those who represent a particular industry, rotating in and out of government, industry leadership positions, and lobbying. Those who excessively take into account the wishes of the 0.01% over the rest. Those who keep secrets from people so that they don't have a chance of evaluating the policy options before them, and so directing their representatives in government appropriately. in other words, those who do other than honestly and fairly representing/ working for the people who voted for them. SECOND was heading in that direction by suggesting that Presidents come and go, but the Pentagon (and its interests) always remain.
It is my contention that Trump and his cohort, have managed to create their own "swamp" by doing almost exactly what you describe above:
The representation of a "precious" few and misrepresenting themselves as the will of the people. "Rotating" positions much like a game of 3-Card Monte, the old "shell" game where you have to follow the pea and guess under which cup it is; meanwhile, as you stand in the crowd gawking at the shells being craftily manipulated, a pickpocket is going about the crowd slithering in and out of pockets.
..."who represent a particular industry" or group, or way of thinking; always pointing fingers and asigning blame for the woes of that group or "industry." I see the formation of a new "swamp" one that redirects the flow of information, wealth and power - Fake News, Propaganda, the disoulation of the present power grid and the birth of a new sinister and vile corrupt elite. Yes, I fully understand that there exists a power grid that the masses are manipulated by; but the newness of that "new" power structure does not shield it from complete and utter corruption. You are, in effect, rotating out the old and replacing it with the new power base.
A rose by any other name still smells...to borrow a phrase from the Bard.
It is this irony that compelled me to propose this thread. Imagine that Hillary had won. What would you be saying? Pretty much what you said above:
About the evils of her admministration manipulating the very institutions
you describe above. So what, IYHO, has changed? Apply those very elements to the "new" power grid that is looking to replace the old. Ask the question with each item you accurately depict in your staement.
Start at the top. The president, it doesn't get much more "top" than that. And what has he done? He's replaced the "establishment" with "his" people, has he not? And what, pray tell, have they done to dismantle the "establishment?" They have appointed people that favor "the cause" - to make America Great Again...which we all know means for it to lean a certain way (I attribute that anxious bit of business to the prediction that by 2050, the good ole USA will be more than 50 percent people of color; or what is now known as the minorities - black, Hispanic, Asian, India etc)
That "Wall" should have been built the moment the first Pilgrims landed on Plymouth Rock. It will not work, merely because this land is too big, plus there's the Canadian border and all the ships at sea (how do you think the Chinese get here to our teaming shores?)
My comment was refering to the swapping out of the "establishment" (rather the old establishment) for the "new establishment" which Bannon and company are looking to secure spots for the future of "his people." Plus he wants, along with those like-minded people, to ensure that things get done the "right way." Of course, all this is mere speculation on my part, what the hell do I know.
So, go ahead, ask yourself those very questions, the one that you pose in the quoted statement above:
ind
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