To those of us who just sold your country down the river...
POSTED BY: Clandestiny
UPDATED: Sunday, November 7, 2004 19:31
VIEWED: 18299
PAGE 5 of 8
Quote:
I have the right to hold my own opinion. That's what tolerance is.
Of course you have the right to your own opinion. I wasn't trying to say that YOU are like the example I gave. But it's been my experience that when I DO try and discuss things logically and reasonably with Bush supporters, it often gets to the point where they ditch evidence and logic and wind up stating a belief. And the one thing about belief is that you can't prove it... that's why it's belief and not fact. Since by definition it can't be proved, it may a well not be brought into a discussion.
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Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
I'd deconstructed his argument point by meticulous point, providing links, facts from my own work, research from other's work, and the guy kept pounding me over the head with his fixation. He was literally pointing to LACK OF EVIDENCE as evidence that something was there.
How can you have a reasoned discussion with someone who refuses to reason?
You're right. That man was an idiot, no question. But you can't extrapolate from him that all Bush supporters think similarly.
I'm a military intelligence analyst. Pre-war I was convinced--and not because of anything Bush said--that WMD would be found in Iraq. I was scared out of my mind when that first missile came our way. Now--I think we were all wrong. I think Saddam perpetuated the belief because it kept Iran in check.
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I wish I had a magical wish-granting plank.
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Huh! Well, OK, I think we have some common ground here!!
Cheers! I'm off to bed. Sleep well.
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Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
How can you have a reasoned discussion with someone who refuses to reason?
I ask myself that everyday.
I wasn't there and didn't hear your conversation. I know that for myself, I get some of my best results with the concept that honey attracts more flies than vinegar. Facts are certainly useful, but there is a reason some people are great salesman and other are not.
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in response to gruesome
1rst off you took what I said out of context, with your cut an paste 2nd I was making generalities..its too bad you can't seem to distingish that..and you took what I posted personally
you made a broad statement about people on the left
so I made a broad statement about people on the right in response.
I'm not interested in if you are a rep or a dem or right or left, I'm not interested in you!! I was interested in what you posted
so I hope that is clarified, believe me if I had of been interested in you I would have asked about you...I'm not just what you posted!!
I'm assuming if your going to make and post statments like that you must want a response
This is sad but if any point was proven I would have to say its more mine then yours
your own hypocrisy is coming through..you accuse the left of not being able to have a disscussion but by your very post its obviously you who can't
I didn't have the need to tell you or anyone else to Shut up..but you did
so I ask who needs to grow up...
who can't seem to have an intelligent discussion
thats because I know how to have a reasonable discussion its obvious that you don't
Please take your own advice..you seem to be in dire need of it
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Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:Quote:It's been my experience that when I DO try and discuss things logically and reasonably with Bush supporters, it often gets to the point where they ditch evidence and logic and wind up stating a belief. And the one thing about belief is that you can't prove it... that's why it's belief and not fact. Since by definition it can't be proved, it may a well not be brought into a discussion.
I have the right to hold my own opinion. That's what tolerance is.
If we're talking religious beliefs, then I agree. But I also believe the sun will rise tomorrow, and I doubt you'd dispute that. Beliefs are simply things we hold to be true. Some things we're right about, some wrong. The problem isn't really beliefs, per se, it's presuppositions. If I presuppose that fetus is a human being--a baby--why, that's gonna color the landscape for me. If I presuppose that it isn't, it'll also shape what I believe. The trouble is that presuppositions are virtually impossible to change. Hence, when Dems and Reps sit down to talk, both walk away shaking their head, convinced of their own superiority. I just wish we could all take a big fat skepticism pill and let go of the conviction that we just have to be right.
With that...night all!
_______________________________________________
I wish I had a magical wish-granting plank.
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Dear PirateJenny,
In response to your post:
Quote:
blah blah blah blah blah
Let me simply say that I have no interest in arguiing with you. I made generalizations about other people on the left because I see it too often and am tired of being identified with it. YOU chose to post a "vigourous" and spiteful retort to me in which you:
1. Accused me of being a republican.
2. Said that all the problems of the country would be my fault.
3. Went on to make stupid generalizations about religious people that is EXACTLY the sort of thing that I asked people NOT to do in my original post to this thread.
So... That having been said. You really needn't reply. These are not arguments, they are simply an explanation why I don't really want to talk to you anymore. You are likely to vote how I would prefer anyway, so I certainly don't need to sway you politically. I had just rather hoped that I might convince people like you that you hurt your own cause everytime you post because you do not come off well and you will never convince anyone that disagrees with you of anything. All you will do is piss them off and make it harder for people like me to win people over to our side.
So... shhhhhhhh....
P.S. if you ever want to discuss something civily, feel free to post civily and it will be responded to in kind.
Cheers,
Gruesome
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Quote:
If we're talking religious beliefs, then I agree. But I also believe the sun will rise tomorrow, and I doubt you'd dispute that. Beliefs are simply things we hold to be true. Some things we're right about, some wrong. The problem isn't really beliefs, per se, it's presuppositions. If I presuppose that fetus is a human being--a baby--why, that's gonna color the landscape for me. If I presuppose that it isn't, it'll also shape what I believe.
and thats my whole point although I don't agree that the problem is presuppositions, because you or anyone is free to believe what you want to believe and your free to practice your belifes, the problem is when people try to put their belifes onto others who don't believe the same things
your truth is your truth ..but don't try to make your truth someone elses....thats the problem..and thats the problem with alot of rightwingers which is what I basically stated in my other post!!
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you've proven my point once again.
and your blah's thats childish..this is exactly what I was saying
and no let me clarify for you since you need clarifcation go back and read my post
I didn't accuse you of being a rep I don't care if you are or not
and I didn't say the problems of the country would be your fault I said if you are one of those that voted for this administration that the problems would be your fault!!
only you know who you did or did not vote for!!
you made a broad statment about people on the left not being able to have a discussion but its clear who can't seem to have an intelligent discussion without name calling this is what I was getting at in my intail response this kind of behavior is a prime example response
I don't know if your a rep or not and like I said I don't care but so far by the way this discussions been going I wouldn't be surprised!!
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Quote:
Originally posted by gruesome:
Dear PirateJenny,
In response to your post:Quote:
blah blah blah blah blah
Let me simply say that I have no interest in arguiing with you. I made generalizations about other people on the left because I see it too often and am tired of being identified with it. YOU chose to post a "vigourous" and spiteful retort to me in which you:
1. Accused me of being a republican.
2. Said that all the problems of the country would be my fault.
3. Went on to make stupid generalizations about religious people that is EXACTLY the sort of thing that I asked people NOT to do in my original post to this thread.
So... That having been said. You really needn't reply. These are not arguments, they are simply an explanation why I don't really want to talk to you anymore. You are likely to vote how I would prefer anyway, so I certainly don't need to sway you politically. I had just rather hoped that I might convince people like you that you hurt your own cause everytime you post because you do not come off well and you will never convince anyone that disagrees with you of anything. All you will do is piss them off and make it harder for people like me to win people over to our side.
So... shhhhhhhh....
P.S. if you ever want to discuss something civily, feel free to post civily and it will be responded to in kind.
Cheers,
Gruesome
OH MY GAWD!!! this is to sick for words ...this person Gruesom put Blah blah blah in qoutes and tried to pretend like I'm the one who posted such childish nonesense...
thats so sick geez whats wrong with you!!
I hope everyone sees the level you'll stoop too
sad very very sad!!
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