To those of us who just sold your country down the river...

POSTED BY: Clandestiny
UPDATED: Sunday, November 7, 2004 19:31
VIEWED: 18299
PAGE 4 of 8

PREV PAGE 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 NEXT PAGE

INEVITABLEBETRAYAL

Thursday, November 4, 2004 6:23 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by gruesome:
Until people like you get out of the mindset of immediately calling "the other side" names, you'll forever be someone that can only preach to the choir.

I am a Christian Republican who has voted for Bush twice. And I'll tell you, I'd gladly sit down over coffee with Gruesome any day and talk over the issues. And why? Because he will respect me as a person and respect my right as a person to hold my own opinions. Tolerance means allowing other people to have their own beliefs. Allowing people have beliefs only so long as they agree with yours is the very height of intolerance. I would never even consider the opinion of Clandestiny or PirateJenny, because they come into the conversation insulting me and my intelligence! Gruesome, on the other hand, I would listen too, because he has enough class to tolerate differing opinions. All I can say is thank God the Democratic party who have people who would rather use reason and logic than vitriol and insults. Good on you, Gruesome.

_______________________________________________
I wish I had a magical wish-granting plank.

PIRATEJENNY

Thursday, November 4, 2004 6:37 AM

Quote:
My entire point was that too many dems burn time and energy doing nothing but attacking the other side rather than attempting to understand why they think differently. And what happens when I say that relatively easy to understand truth? *I* get attacked and have it explained to me who *I* must have voted for and how the problems of the country are now MY fault!

No this is so not true!! Its time that us Democrates Progressives start calling you guys out on the crap!! actually its the other way around..the attacking comes from the radical right..its very hard to have a reasonable disscussion or for that matter intelligent discussion with rightwingers..most of you guys don't deal in facts..and when we try to have reasonable fact base discussions with you guys..its like talking to a brick wall..most of you guys can't acknowlege the truth let alone discuss it

its not even about disagreeing or listening
for example lets take your example of gay marriage, nobody is saying you have to like it or agree with it and that is your right ..but if you live in a free society if you believe in democracy, then you don't try to encroach on someones human rights you don't try to make them 2nd and 3rd class citazens

don't wrap youself up in the flag and talk about freedom and democracy..and then try to undermine someone else of those same rights just because you disagree... if you talk the talk then walk the walk and support the very ideals and ideology your country represents and stands for... its ok to disagree but don't try to dis infranchise someone else.

this is one of my main problems with radical righwingers and reps..most of you guys are too hypocritcal for words.

its hard for a reasonable person to have a discussion with a hypocrite, or someone who chooses to be in a delusional state and isn't reasonable

another example is the evangelical christian right..these people who claim to have values and morals and yet they don't stand for or support the very morals and values they claim to have.

how can these people claim to have morals and values and vote for an admistration like the Bush administration the same admistration that preachs morals and values and yet every law and bill that they support is the very opposite of what they claim.

Most of these so called evangelical christians are really bigots and they use religion as a sheild, and thats why they support a morally bankrupt administration like the current one

I've seen to many times where Dem's Liberal Progressives have tried to be reasonable and use logic and comon sense and they've been attacked

this is what its like trying to have a reasonable discussion with a rightwinger..

it could be day outside and a rightwinger will look you straight in the eye and say "No its night" and you could say "look out the window the sun is shining brightly" and the rightwinger will call you crazy because you said it was day when its day!!

and yes if your one of the ones who voted for this administration be prepared for the blame to be layed squarely on your shoulders when the Crap flies..( and it will)thats the price you'll have to pay!!..no excuses!! because we've tried to be reasonable we've tried to talk to you guys reasonably and you guys don't hear or don't care..so yes your gonna be blamed and rightly so!!

GRUESOME

Thursday, November 4, 2004 6:39 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by NeutrinoLad:
In my experience, those on the right tend to insult those on the left as; lacking morals, treasonous, unpatriotic, communists, socialists, and America Haters.

I've certainly seen that. But honestly, to my eye, that rhetoric seems like last resort from most on the right.

I am trying to think how to word this...

There is a certain... Smugness... that many on the left seem to have. As if they "get it" and those on the right do not.

Mind you, I am speaking(typing?) all in generalities here, but where I think the right assumes wrong is when people to whom many of those labels might really apply *cough*michael moore*cough* are seen saying and supporting many of the same things that more reasonable people on the left espouse, the right seems to think that EVERYONE that agrees on certain social issues must agree on ALL issues. So I think the right jumps to conclusions by assuming that that everyone on the left is lock-step with celebrities that are socialists in all but name.

The smugness I mentioned... I can see it in this thread. This sense that some people here simply give up because the right will just never "get it". Its all very condescending. Like you are fed up with your errant children and they just will never learn.

I used to try to understand "the opposition" because I always found that it was a very effective tool in debating. To be able to take the opposite position and understand it to the point that you can argue it yourself helps you to find many holes in it. But as I got older, I started to realize quite simply that understanding the other point of view should be an ends in itself, and not a means to a different end.

INEVITABLEBETRAYAL

Thursday, November 4, 2004 6:42 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by piratejenny:
its very hard to have a reasonable disscussion or for that matter intelligent discussion with rightwingers..most of you guys don't deal in facts..and when we try to have reasonable fact base discussions with you guys..its like talking to a brick wall..most of you guys can't acknowlege the truth let alone discuss it

this is one of my main problems with radical righwingers and reps..most of you guys are too hypocritcal for words.

Most of these so called evangelical christians are really bigots and they use religion as a sheild, and thats why they support a morally bankrupt administration like the current one

Thanks for illustrating my point, Jenny.

_______________________________________________
I wish I had a magical wish-granting plank.

GRUESOME

Thursday, November 4, 2004 6:52 AM

Quote:
"start calling you guys out on the crap"
"its very hard to have a reasonable disscussion or for that matter intelligent discussion with rightwingers"
"you guys don't deal in facts"
"its like talking to a brick wall"
"you guys can't acknowlege the truth"
"don't wrap youself up in the flag"
"you guys are too hypocritcal for words"

I don't know what to say.... But here goes...

Let me start by asking you a couple simple questions.
Am I a republican or a democrat?
A rightwinger or leftwinger?
Who did I vote for?
Am I religious?

After you have answered those, we can move on to this statement:

Quote:
evangelical christians are really bigots and they use religion as a sheild

What part of my messages here have confused you? I am trying to ask whether you are CAPABLE of holding a conversation WITHOUT this sort of CHILDISH generalization. Quite frankly, people like you EMBARRASS ME because it becomes more difficult by the day to hold REAL conversations with people because they start assuming I am going to freak out on them LIKE YOU DO, just because we share some certain beliefs.

Quote:
we've tried to talk to you guys reasonably and you guys don't hear or don't care

Thats funny. I don't think we've met, and to this point, I've been quite reasonable. Can you say the same?

So, if you are not going to even attempt to listen to reason, I'd simply ask you to instead SHUT UP and leave the talking to the grown ups.

SIGNYM

Thursday, November 4, 2004 6:53 AM

Quote:
I find it typical and annoying that when people on the right disagree with those on the left, they usually put it in terms of disagreeing with the left's position.

Whereas people on the left, as further evidenced here, tend to insult the intelligence of those on the right instead of just accepting that they disagree with our views. - Gruesome

Quote:
And I'll tell you, I'd gladly sit down over coffee with Gruesome any day and talk over the issues. And why? Because he will respect me as a person and respect my right as a person to hold my own opinions. Tolerance means allowing other people to have their own beliefs. Allowing people have beliefs only so long as they agree with yours is the very height of intolerance. I would never even consider the opinion of Clandestiny or Succotash, because they come into the conversation insulting me and my intelligence- InevitableBetrayal

It would probably be a very congenial discussion indeed.

Regarding the intelligence of Bush supporters-

I've gone rounds with a Bush supporter who remains CONVINCED that Saddam had massive amounts of WMD just before we invaded in 2003. This despite the fact that the Hans Blix, David Kay, and Charles Duelfer have gone over Iraq with a fine-tooth comb and found nothing. I've tried explaining that WMD don't store well (5 years, except for mustard gas) and that in order for Saddam to have the "massive" amounts of WMD that Bush claimed, Saddam would require a large manufacturing effort to build up those stockpiles. I've tried explaining that manufacturing, culturing/ weaponizing, and storing on that scale inevitably leaves traces. I've tried explaining that if he had listened to the efforts of the UN inspection teams he would have understood and appreciated how dedicated and downright sneaky the UN guys were and how unlikely it was that they would have missed anything significant. But he kept pointing over and over again to the WMD that Saddam "had" over a decade ago, believing that was somehow relevant, and no amount factual information could sway him off his idee fixe. BTW, I'm a chemist, and part of my job is to understand industrial, chemical agent, and biological releases.

The point is that Bush supporters refer to their "beliefs" over and over. It seems impossible for them (you?) talk about their support without using that word. I respect beliefs about as much as anyone, but don't expect me to treat beliefs as if they're facts, because they're not. It's like trying to reach a consensus with someone who insists that 2+2=5. What's the point of even talking about it?

GRUESOME

Thursday, November 4, 2004 6:57 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
I'm not sure I'm even seeing any difference between you two

heh... ohhh... I think the laundry list of disagreements would require more than a few cups of coffee...

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
I've gone rounds with a Bush supporter

I think it is very telling that your own description of the conversation used a boxing analogy.

INEVITABLEBETRAYAL

Thursday, November 4, 2004 7:03 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Regarding the intelligence of Bush supporters...

Once again, you've entered the conversation insulting my intelligence.

I'm sure that Gruesome and I would disagree on any number of points (gun control, abortion, and gay marriage come to mind). My point was that I'm much more inclined to listen to someone who is willing to respect the fact that as a fellow human being, I have the right to hold my own opinion. That's what tolerance is.

I just can't believe that now Gruesome is in the same hated category as me, a hated Christian conservative Bush-supporting Republican, simply because he wants to hold a civil conversation! And you wonder why "people like me" won't even dialogue with you...

_______________________________________________
I wish I had a magical wish-granting plank.

SIGNYM

Thursday, November 4, 2004 7:06 AM

Because I'd deconstructed his argument point by meticulous point, providing links, facts from my own work, research from other's work, and the guy kept pounding me over the head with his fixation. He was literally pointing to LACK OF EVIDENCE as evidence that something was there.

How can you have a reasoned discussion with someone who refuses to reason?

GRUESOME

Thursday, November 4, 2004 7:12 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by InevitableBetrayal:
I'm sure that Gruesome and I would disagree on any number of points (gun control, abortion, and gay marriage lead to mind)

Well... To set the record straight, I am pro-2nd amendment and staunchly anti-abortion.

But we would likely disagree on:
1. Gay rights
2. Drugs
3. Censorship
4. Patriot Act (And John Ashcroft in general)
5. Bush Selling out our technology field to India
6. Bush siding with CHINA?!?! over Thailand's independence
7. And probably dozens of other civil liberties being stolen everydaybut its late and I am tired...

But I wanted to clear up the 2 we agreed on, guns and babies!

Cheers,
Gruesome

PREV PAGE 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 NEXT PAGE