Real World Event Discussions

The State of Freedom in Ukraine

POSTED BY: SIGNYM
UPDATED: Tuesday, September 9, 2025 04:23
VIEWED: 12109
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THGRRI

Thursday, May 19, 2016 8:35 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Quote:
THETHREESTOOGES to Putin: I can't quit you!
OMFG! I laughed my ass off!

It seems that the people who keep claiming I'm a Putin fan girl spend about 10X (if not more) time talking about ... Putin!

You and 1kiki are like the morons who are fighting for safe zones in colleges. They, and you, want a place to bitch (protest) without being challenged. You cry foul when I interject Putin and the health of the Russian economy into the dialog about the Ukraine. You cannot have an honest discussion without acknowledging Russia’s role there. Something you and 1kiki refuse to do. This however, is not a safe zone and you will be challenged.

What you want and cannot have, is a place where you can cut and paste your propaganda denying the truth. That the Ukraine is protecting its sovereignty from Russian aggression. And that the state of Russia’s economy, which can lead to unrest at home, has everything to do with the resources Russia can expend in its attempt to steal even more Ukrainian territory.

You want something to laugh about. How about the fact that you are up to your neck criticizing the government of the Ukrainian people, but have suggested you don’t criticize Putin because what they do in Russia is none of your business.

The ignorance displayed by the two of you is like the verse; endless.

JEWELSTAITEFAN

Friday, May 20, 2016 4:13 AM

Some threads I feel should have Cliff Notes. I'm thinking this is one.

THGRRI

Saturday, May 21, 2016 3:35 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
How is your post about the state of freedom in Ukraine?

So, did you hear about the personal information that some assholes in Kiev released on 4,000+ journalists? These journalists apparently committed the crime of being registered with, and covering the conflict in the Donbas.

Quote:
A Ukrainian hacker group published on 7 May, an extensive list of names and personal details of numerous journalists, who had covered the conflict from the rebel-controlled eastern Ukraine. The leak has raised concerns about the safety and welfare of the journalists, many of whom are affiliated with international media organisations.

The hackers published the list on a website called Myrotvorets (Peacemaker), claiming that they had gained access to the computers of pro-Russian separatists in eastern Ukraine used to keep track of the list of registered journalists granted to work in the area. The hackers claimed that they felt justified in making the information public "because these journalists collaborate with fighters from terrorist organiations," the Wall Street Journal reported.

The New York based Committee to Protect Journalists issued a statement denouncing the leak, which contains private information, including cell phone numbers and email addresses of around 4,500 journalists from across the world. Some of those in the list have acknowledged having experienced extreme ordeal in the detention centres of Donetsk.

The organisation's Europe and Central Asia programme coordinator Nina Ognianova said, "Publishing journalists' private contact details puts them at risk. At worst this action could be read as a thinly veiled call to target them."

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/ukrainian-hackers-leak-personal-information-t
housands-journalists-1559923

Since journalists travel over large areas, covering conflicts in many regions, this also puts them at risk from jihadists and other extremists, some of whom are working hand-in-glove with the neo-Nazis of Ukraine.

Ukraine is a giant cluster-fuck. You don't hear much about it in the press anymore because it's not going so well. Right now, it looks like the post-Soviet space - if not worse- when formerly state-controlled enterprises were being snapped up by gangsters and oligarchs. The power struggle is between various oligarchs, the Nazis, and some ethnic minorities like the Mejili Tartars. Ordinary people don't stand a chance in the melee. THAT is the state of freedom in Ukraine.

Next time, try posting on-topic. If you really want to post something about Russia, make your own thread.

Is it on topic if I post that you get your information about the Ukraine from Russian state television?

MOSCOW — President Vladimir Putin's government is tightening the noose on free speech more and more in Russia by intimidating and forcing out independent journalists critical of the Kremlin, the journalists and media watchdogs allege.

“I’ve never imagined myself writing for foreign Russian-language media. I thought that was something out of the Cold War,” said journalist Oleg Kashin, a Putin critic who was beaten outside his Moscow home in a 2010 attack that remains unsolved. He was fired from his Russian newspaper job in 2012 and has yet to find permanent work in Russian media.

“I’ve found a lot of colleagues in the same situation… and I don’t feel as lonely as three and a half years ago,” Kashin said.

In the latest apparent crackdown, three top editors of RBC , one of Russia's major news companies, were fired after a report on assets Putin allegedly held."

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2016/05/20/russia-crackdown-a
nti-putin-media-worsens/84583080/

SIGNYM

Saturday, May 21, 2016 11:56 AM

I didn't object to your posting about Russia, as you tried to portray.

What I WAS objecting to was your muddling of topics. If you want to post about some heinous actions of Russia ... and spend EVEN MORE TIME posting about Putin ... start another thread.

And I'm STILL snickering about how you can't quit Putin!

--------------
You can't build a nation with bombs. You can't create a society with guns.

THGRRI

Saturday, May 21, 2016 6:41 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
I didn't object to your posting about Russia, as you tried to portray.

What I WAS objecting to was your muddling of topics. If you want to post about some heinous actions of Russia ... and spend EVEN MORE TIME posting about Putin ... start another thread.

And I'm STILL snickering about how you can't quit Putin!

And I am watching you suggest once again that Putin and Russia have no involvement in the Ukraine, by stating here, neither has any business being discussed in a thread titled, the state of freedom in the Ukraine.

Not snickering here comrade troll, falling down laughing.

SIGNYM

Saturday, May 21, 2016 7:00 PM

How is what's happening in Russia connected to what's happening in Ukraine? Don't reference the general bias that you seem operate on, which goes "Bad things are happening in Russia and therefore it "must" have an effect on Ukraine but explain to me and bring evidence for HOW Russia is causing Ukraine to implode. I'll bet that no matter how hard you try, you can't find any causal connection.

--------------
You can't build a nation with bombs. You can't create a society with guns.

THGRRI

Saturday, May 21, 2016 7:40 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
How is what's happening in Russia connected to what's happening in Ukraine? Don't reference the general bias that you seem operate on, which goes "Bad things are happening in Russia and therefore it "must" have an effect on Ukraine but explain to me and bring evidence for HOW Russia is causing Ukraine to implode. I'll bet that no matter how hard you try, you can't find any causal connection.

Really???

This article is about Russian military invasion in post-Euromaidan Ukraine. For Russian annexation of Crimea, see Annexation of Crimea by the Russian Federation. For the unrest in eastern Ukraine, see 2014 pro-Russian unrest in Ukraine. For the ongoing military conflict in Donbass, see War in Donbass.

Russian military intervention in Ukraine (2014–present)

Part of the Ukrainian crisis and
the War in Donbass
2014 Russo-ukrainian-conflict map.svg
Pink in the Donbass area represents areas currently held by the DPR/LPR insurgents (cities in red). Crimea, which is under Russian control, is also shown in pink/red. Yellow represents areas under the control of Ukrainian government (cities in blue).
(Image last updated on: 11 September 2014.)

Date
20 February 2014 – ongoing
(2 years, 2 months, 3 weeks and 4 days)

Location

Ukraine (Crimean Peninsula, Donetsk Oblast,[2] Luhansk Oblast,[2] Kherson Oblast[3]);
Black Sea (Sea of Azov)[4];
Russian Federation (Rostov Oblast).[5][6]

Status

Unmarked Russian troops take over Crimea, seize military units,[7][8][9] fortify near Chonhar, Kherson Oblast[10][11][12] (abandoned by 9 December 2014)[13]
Russian military buildup on Russian-Ukrainian border[14][15]
NATO condemns Russian involvement, plans Rapid Trident military exercises in Ukraine,[16] reinforces members west of Ukraine.[17]
US,[2] Ukraine[18] accuse Russia of orchestrating unrest in eastern and southern Ukraine
Russian intervention in the War in Donbass[19]
Economic sanctions applied to Russia as a result of the intervention contribute to the collapse of the ruble and the Russian financial crisis that began in 2014[20][21][22][23]

Territorial
changes

Annexation of Crimea by the Russian Federation
Pro-Russian insurgents control strip along border from Novoazovsk to Luhansk

Belligerents

Russia
In Crimea:
Republic of Crimea
In Donbass:
Donetsk People's Republic
Lugansk People's Republic Ukraine Ukraine[1]

Commanders and leaders

Russia Vladimir Putin
Russia Sergey Shoygu
Russia Alexander Lentsov[24]
Russia Valery Gerasimov
Russia Igor Sergun
Russia Aleksandr Vitko
Russia Denis Berezovsky
Republic of Crimea Sergey Aksyonov
Donetsk People's Republic Alexander Zakharchenko
Luhansk People's Republic Igor Plotnitsky Ukraine Petro Poroshenko
Ukraine Ihor Tenyukh
Ukraine Mykhailo Kutsyn
Ukraine Serhiy Hayduk

Units involved

Russian Armed Forces:[25][26]
Ground Forces Russian 76th Airborne Division patch.svg 76th Airborne Division[27][28]
Russian 98th Airborne Division patch.svg 98th Airborne Division[29]
Russian 31st Airborne Brigade patch.svg 31st Airborne Brigade[30]
18th Mechanized Brigade[30]
9th Motorized Rifle Brigade (Nizhny Novgorod)[31]

Navy Sleeve Insignia of the Russian Baltic Fleet.svg Baltic Fleet[32]
Sleeve Insignia of the Russian Northern Fleet.svg Northern Fleet
Sleeve Insignia of the Russian Black Sea Fleet.svg Black Sea Fleet Morskaja pehota Rossii.gif Marines[33]

Generalstaff central dep.svg GRU[34]
22nd Spetsnaz Brigade[30][35]
45th Guards Spetsnaz Regiment[36]

Armed Forces of Ukraine:
Ground Forces Airmobile Forces

Air Force
Navy

???????????? ???? - ??????? ??? ???????.svg Internal Affairs Ministry:
National Guard Territorial defence battalions
Azov Battalion
Donbas Battalion
«Dnipro-1» battalion emblem.jpg Dnipro Battalion
Kharkiv Battalion

Emblem of the State Border Guard Service of Ukraine.png State Border Gu

SIGNYM

Saturday, May 21, 2016 8:08 PM

Quote:
How is what's happening in Russia connected to what's happening in Ukraine? Don't reference the general bias that you seem operate on, which goes "Bad things are happening in Russia and therefore it "must" have an effect on Ukraine but explain to me and bring evidence for HOW Russia is causing Ukraine to implode. I'll bet that no matter how hard you try, you can't find any causal connection. - SIGNY

Really???- STOOGE

This article

What article? The one that you seem to have cut&pasted below is a hodge-podge of facts about nothing in particular. The formatting is screwed up, it's hard to tell what the point is because so much of it is irrelevant. For example, the military command structure of Russia: How is that related to Ukraine?

Quote:
is about Russian military invasion in post-Euromaidan Ukraine. For Russian annexation of Crimea, see Annexation of Crimea by the Russian Federation. For the unrest in eastern Ukraine, see 2014 pro-Russian unrest in Ukraine. For the ongoing military conflict in Donbass, see War in Donbass.

Russian military intervention in Ukraine (2014–present)

Part of the Ukrainian crisis and the War in Donbass
2014 Russo-ukrainian-conflict map.svg

Pink in the Donbass area represents areas currently held by the DPR/LPR insurgents (cities in red).

And how are they Russians?

Quote:
Crimea, which is under Russian control, is also shown in pink/red. Yellow represents areas under the control of Ukrainian government (cities in blue).

So there was a map?

Quote:
Unmarked Russian troops take over Crimea seize military units,fortify near Chonhar, Kherson Oblast (abandoned by 9 December 2014)

Russian military buildup on Russian-Ukrainian border

Um. "on the border", not IN Ukraine.

Quote:
NATO condemns Russian involvement, plans Rapid Trident military exercises in Ukraine, reinforces members west of Ukraine.

NATO condemns Russia for any reason and no reason whatsoever.

Quote:
Ukraine accuse Russia of orchestrating unrest in eastern and southern Ukraine

Kiev also accuses Russia of anything and everything.

Quote:
Russian intervention in the War in Donbass
Economic sanctions applied to Russia as a result of the

Presumed

Quote:
intervention contribute to the collapse of the ruble and the Russian financial crisis that began in 2014

What THIS is saying is that the Russian economy "collapsed" as a result of sanctions which were imposed because of presumed "intervention" (notice they didn't say "invasion") of the Donbas. So Russia is suffering (they say) as a result of sanctions. Again, how does this contribute to Ukraine's collapse?

Quote:
Territorial changes
Annexation of Crimea by the Russian Federation
Pro-Russian insurgents control strip along border from Novoazovsk to Luhansk

Belligerents
Russia
In Crimea:
Republic of Crimea
In Donbass:
Donetsk People's Republic
Lugansk People's Republic Ukraine Ukraine

Um... It's a list. It's kind of disorganized. I'm not even sure what the point is. And what does this have to do with the state of freedom in Ukraine?

Quote:
Commanders and leaders

Russia Vladimir Putin
Russia Sergey Shoygu
Russia Alexander Lentsov[24]
Russia Valery Gerasimov
Russia Igor Sergun
Russia Aleksandr Vitko
Russia Denis Berezovsky
Republic of Crimea Sergey Aksyonov
Donetsk People's Republic Alexander Zakharchenko
Luhansk People's Republic Igor Plotnitsky Ukraine Petro Poroshenko
Ukraine Ihor Tenyukh
Ukraine Mykhailo Kutsyn
Ukraine Serhiy Hayduk

Again, another list. Some of these people are Russian. Some of them are Ukrainian. What's the point?

Quote:
Units involved
Russian Armed Forces:
Ground Forces Russian 76th Airborne Division patch.svg 76th Airborne Division
Russian 98th Airborne Division patch.svg 98th Airborne Division

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SIGNYM

Saturday, May 21, 2016 8:45 PM

Transcript of leaked phone conversation between Pyatt and Nuland. There's a lot more than "fuck the EU" in it.

Quote:
Nuland: What do you think?

Pyatt: I think we're in play. The Klitschko piece is obviously the complicated electron here. Especially the announcement of him as deputy prime minister and you've seen some of my notes on the troubles in the marriage right now so we're trying to get a read really fast on where he is on this stuff. But I think your argument to him, which you'll need to make, I think that's the next phone call you want to set up, is exactly the one you made to Yats. And I'm glad you sort of put him on the spot on where he fits in this scenario. And I'm very glad that he said what he said in response.

Nuland: Good. I don't think Klitsch should go into the government. I don't think it's necessary, I don't think it's a good idea.

Pyatt: Yeah. I guess... in terms of him not going into the government, just let him stay out and do his political homework and stuff. I'm just thinking in terms of sort of the process moving ahead we want to keep the moderate democrats together. The problem is going to be Tyahnybok and his guys and I'm sure that's part of what Yanukovych is calculating on all this.

Nuland: [Breaks in] I think Yats is the guy who's got the economic experience, the governing experience. He's the... what he needs is Klitsch and Tyahnybok on the outside. He needs to be talking to them four times a week, you know. I just think Klitsch going in... he's going to be at that level working for Yatseniuk, it's just not going to work.

Pyatt: Yeah, no, I think that's right. OK. Good. Do you want us to set up a call with him as the next step?

Nuland: My understanding from that call - but you tell me - was that the big three were going into their own meeting and that Yats was going to offer in that context a... three-plus-one conversation or three-plus-two with you. Is that not how you understood it?

Pyatt: No. I think... I mean that's what he proposed but I think, just knowing the dynamic that's been with them where Klitschko has been the top dog, he's going to take a while to show up for whatever meeting they've got and he's probably talking to his guys at this point, so I think you reaching out directly to him helps with the personality management among the three and it gives you also a chance to move fast on all this stuff and put us behind it before they all sit down and he explains why he doesn't like it.

Nuland: OK, good. I'm happy. Why don't you reach out to him and see if he wants to talk before or after.

Pyatt: OK, will do. Thanks.

Nuland: OK... one more wrinkle for you Geoff. I can't remember if I told you this, or if I only told Washington this, that when I talked to Jeff Feltman [United Nations Under-Secretary-General for Political Affairs] this morning, he had a new name for the UN guy Robert Serry did I write you that this morning?

Pyatt: Yeah I saw that.

Nuland: OK. He's now gotten both Serry and [UN Secretary General] Ban Ki-moon to agree that Serry could come in Monday or Tuesday. So that would be great, I think, to help glue this thing and to have the UN help glue it and, you know, Fuck the EU.

Pyatt: No, exactly. And I think we've got to do something to make it stick together because you can be pretty sure that if it does start to gain altitude, that the Russians will be working behind the scenes to try to torpedo it. And again the fact that this is out there right now, I'm still trying to figure out in my mind why Yanukovych (garbled) that. In the meantime there's a Party of Regions faction meeting going on right now and I'm sure there's a lively argument going on in that group at this point. But anyway we could land jelly side up on this one if we move fast. So let me work on Klitschko and if you can just keep... we want to try to get somebody with an international personality to come out

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SIGNYM

Saturday, May 21, 2016 10:09 PM

Quote:
A top Ukrainian official said that elections in eastern Ukraine will be possible only after Ukraine's sovereignty is renewed in the region and Russia's presence is eliminated in those territories. A deputy speaker of the Ukrainian Parliament, Oksana Syroyid, told VOA on Friday that from the Ukrainian perspective, any elections under current conditions would legitimize those who occupy Ukrainian territory. It would mean bringing them into Ukrainian politics, she said, which would end up destroying the Ukrainian state and its sovereignty.

http://www.voanews.com/content/ukraine-conditions-for-elections-in-don
bas/3309806.html

Meanwhile, the defenders and promoters of democracy in Ukraine - which would presumably be the USA and Kiev- refuse to hold elections in eastern Ukraine until the Donbas proves it doesn't have WMD ... er, I mean, as soon as the Russians leave.

Nuland, of course, says the same thing:

Quote:
Nuland: U.S. won't recognize elections in Donbas unless Minsk is implemented*

The U.S. will not accept local election in the occupied territories of eastern Ukraine, if they are not held in accordance with the Minsk agreements. U.S. Assistant Secretary of State for European and Eurasian Affairs Victoria Nuland stated this after the meeting with Russian President's Adviser Vladislav Surkov, as Interfax-Ukraine news agency reports.

"We as well as everybody else in the international community we won't recognize any results of the elections in Donbas, held without observing the Minsk agreements", - Nuland said.*

It seems to me that rather than promoting democracy and peace, Kiev and the USA are throwing roadblocks in the way, moving the goalposts and insisting on proving a negative. (An impossibility, as Iraq found out.)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minsk_II

It should be easy to organize an acceptable election in Donbass. But meanwhile, even the thought of allowing elections in the Donbass has caused Ukrainian neo-Nazis to go hyper:

Azov Battalion marches in Kyiv against local elections in Donbas (video, photos)

Quote:
On May 20, Ukraine's Azov Battalion (Civilian Corps and Regiment) spearheaded a march in central Kyiv under the motto 'No Back Down Is What Nation Demands'. They protested the Minsk agreements and the holding of elections in the separatist-held Donbas.

The organisers say, it will lead to the ultimate loss of government control over the Donetsk and Luhansk regions.

Read also Azov battalion spearheads unity march to ‘cleanse' Kyiv streets of communist past

According to Ukraine's police, nearly 2,000 people took part in the rally, whereas organizers said about 8,000 activists were brought together. The march resulted in a rally outside Ukraine's Parliament building (Verkhovna Rada). The protest was held in a peaceful manner, but from time to time the activists would set off firecrackers and flares.

Ukraine's European partners insist on running local elections in the occupied territories of Ukraine. According to German Foreign Minister Frank-Walter Steinmeier, the vote should take place until July of this year. He called on the parties to work on developing the election laws for Donbas.

Kyiv insists that the local elections in the militant-held territories must be held under the Ukrainian law involving Ukrainian parties, official observers and journalists. Separatists do not accept these terms while Russia demands amnesty for militants*.

http://uatoday.tv/society/azov-battalion-marches-in-kyiv-against-local
-elections-in-donbas-652411.html
*That's in Minsk II, it's not a sudden demand by Russia

I understand their concern. That would be the same reaction that Assad would have against forming a semi-independent Kurdistan in northern Syria. If they weren't out-and-out fascists, the Azovs would get a little more sympathy from me.

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You can't build a nation with bombs. You can't create a society with guns.