Real World Event Discussions

The State of Freedom in Ukraine

POSTED BY: SIGNYM
UPDATED: Tuesday, September 9, 2025 04:23
VIEWED: 12109
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SIGNYM

Wednesday, January 20, 2016 6:52 PM

Quote:
I'm sure there were those who couldn't leave, by reason of disability or perhaps being held hostage by the terrorists who had taken over Grozny.- SIGNY

Even if that were true, and I notice you provide no evidence, that makes it ok for Putin to go ahead and carpet bomb the whole city?

And OK to bomb Baghdad? Fallujah? Tripoli?

Quote:
For the terrorists in Grozny- like those who killed 200 young schoolchildren in Beslan- SIGNY
Any tears for the hundreds if not thousands of children killed by Putin's carpet bombing of Grozny?

And none for Baghdad? Fallujah? Tripoli?

Quote:
That way, we could tease apart answers to "Who is a terrorist?" and "When is violence morally acceptable?"- SIGNY

You and I have both been on these boards a long time and I've had these discussions with you before. You change your definition of 'terrorism' from post to post, and your position on separatism and national borders and the right of self-determination changes with whichever way the wind is blowing (or rather whichever way supports Russia, and damns the USA). In 2014 when Russia was annexing Crimea and fomenting separatist war in Ukraine you were all for separatism, and peoples' right to self-determination. But in 2015 when international attention switched to Syria, and the [popular] IMPORTED Sunni uprising there, you immediately came out with your firm belief that Russia's campaign to crush the rebels was the best thing ever.

Because you love ISIL, apparently, and would love to see it expand all over the ME.

Quote:
We can debate principles of democracy, national sovereignty, terrorism, the right to self-determination etc, but in 6 months time your positions will have completely changed to be in line with Russia's latest war.

No, "we" can't. Because in 6 months time you will be whinging about whatever "enemy" your government and mine has designated as "the latest" enemy, and you'll be willing to follow the trail
from bin Laden to Saddam to Qaddafi to Russia to Assad to China... wherever the fuck the trail is that they choose to lead you, without ever noticing that you've managed to support the killing of millions- literally- of civilians along the way, or that you've changed goals (WMD, freedom, tyranny, geopolitics) and tactics (massive invasion, destabilization supported by bombing/shelling, drone strikes) along the way.

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Why debate or have a discussion with someone whose principles are completely fluid?

Indeed. Or whose brains are completely fluid?

For the record this was my attempt to have a rational discussion with you on this subject back in 2014:

KPO (2014):

Quote:
Independence/secessionist movements need to be considered on a case by case basis, balancing such priniciples as the right of self-determination, national sovereignty, and the region's unique history. No two situations are the same, and no two people will balance all these factors in the same way. It should be noted that different Western countries have different stances on accepting Kosovo's independence or not.

In the case of Kosovo ethnic Serbs see the land as belonging to their country, but the people living there don't feel they belong to Serbia at all. They are mostly ethnic Albanian, and for nearly 500 years they lived under Muslim, Ottoman control. But the key factor in support for Kosovan independence is the campaign of terror and ethnic cleansing that the Serb government carried out against the ethnic Albanian population in the 90's. The UN ruled that Serbia had carried out a "systematic campaign of terror, including murders, rapes, arsons and severe maltreatments" and cited several war crimes and crimes against humanity including massacres of unarmed men, women and children, and the forced displacement of tens of thousands.

For me personally, I think it's quite harsh to expect the Kosovans to live again under Serbian rule, given the way the

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SIGNYM

Wednesday, January 20, 2016 6:55 PM

If you might have noticed, the original subject was The State of Freedom in Ukraine. I haven't noticed you saying much in defense of the "State of Freedom in Ukraine" lately. So, hey, that fabulous Maidan "revolution" ... where has that gotten lately?

YOUR problem, KPO (and G, and THUGR) is that you lose sight of your goals, because you really don't know what you want. You use words like "freedom" or maybe "democracy" or "human rights" or "tyranny", bomb your way thru a campaign and ignore the carnage at your feet as you go wading through one nation after another. The fact that you can't even see the death and destruction that you leave in your wake ... and for what? ... speaks to your irrationality. You can't even acknowledge your actions, much less discuss them. When you're ready for a rational discussion, I'm ready. But you're not ready.

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You can't build a nation with bombs. You can't create a society with guns.

SIGNYM

Tuesday, March 8, 2016 1:18 AM

Weird and kind of creepy:

Mass grave found in Odessa (which is under Kiev's control), mounds labeled as "surgical waste".

Apparently, pictures of the mass graves were taken at a local Odessa cemetery, but presented on Ukrainian (Kiev) television as being at Rostov-on-Don (Russia).

There are a lot of weird aspects to this. First of all, you don't bury "surgical waste", you incinerate it. "Surgical waste" is usually limited to a organ, a tumor, occasionally an entire limb, but not anything big. "Hospital waste" also includes items exposed to blood or other body fluids which aren't washed or sterilized and re-used, like surgical sponges etc. You don't bury it. The only reason to bury something is because it's too fuel-inefficient to burn, like - yanno- a body.

And if you DO have to bury waste, you don't put it in a cemetery.

Locals have been putting markers and flowers on the mounds because they feel they know who is buried under at least some of the mounds.

One Odessan thought to demonstrate that this grave is undeniably in Odessa: He uploaded an extended, uncut dashcam video which shows his drive to mass graves.

So, in the cemetery, about two minutes at 20 mph past the last grave, within site of red-and-white striped smokestacks typical of a power plant, you come across mounds and and mounds of ... something, many of them with square plaques that look like nothing so much as concrete pavers with something scrawled into them. When he panned the area, it looked like over a hundred mounds, maybe more.

http://www.fort-russ.com/2016/03/surgical-waste-in-odessa-cemetery-who
.html

So, why were they buried that way? Were they soldiers who "didn't die" in the war against the Donbas? Victims of rightwing violence? Executed political prisoners? Leftovers from organ harvesting??? Homeless, nameless John and Jane Does?

The article doesn't say, but the more benign possibilities don't explain why Kiev tries to keep the mass grave quiet. I'd sure like to find out more about it.

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You can't build a nation with bombs. You can't create a society with guns.

THGRRI

Tuesday, March 8, 2016 1:23 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by G:
Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
YOUR problem, KPO (and G, and THUGR) is that you lose sight of your goals, because you really don't know what you want. You use words like "freedom" or maybe "democracy" or "human rights" or "tyranny", bomb your way thru a campaign and ignore the carnage at your feet as you go wading through one nation after another.

Wow - what a whack job. I have never seen any of the 3 posters mentioned do or say any of those things in that context. Are you sure you have the right forum?

As I read this post G I see SIG once again posting as though she is responding to herself and 1kiki and not any of us. It is kind of scary when she does this. Glad I'm at a safe distance.

SIGNYM

Tuesday, March 8, 2016 1:56 AM

So, what about those mass graves of "surgical waste" in Odessa? Weird, huh?

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You can't build a nation with bombs. You can't create a society with guns.

THGRRI

Tuesday, March 8, 2016 2:04 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
So, what about hose mass graves of "surgical waste" in Odessa? Weird, huh?

--------------
You can't build a nation with bombs. You can't create a society with guns.

Again it is too funny. You just pointed out my lack of ( writing skills ) in another thread. I said I could do that to you time and time again and your next post proves me right. It should be those graves asshole not hose graves.

As for the tragedy of mass grave sites, any thing you post as to who is responsible is suspect.

1KIKI

Tuesday, March 8, 2016 2:04 AM

"Truly wondrous hypocrisy from someone who howls in outrage at relatively small numbers of civilian casualties killed by Ukraine's forces."

Small number? A handful? Dozens? A couple of hundred? The answer is here, in a link
http://www.ohchr.org/Documents/Countries/UA/Ukraine_13th_HRMMU_Report_
3March2016.pdf (since you failed to provide ANY, yanno, EVIDENCE for your BOGUS ASSERTION. As always.)

And hey, look what else it contained!

214.
To the Government of Ukraine:
a) Bring an end to the practice of secret and incommunicado detention;

b) Ensure immediate access of a lawyer to individuals detained in relation to the conflict in the east or for their affiliation or suspected affiliation with the armed groups;

c) Interview all individuals released from the captivity by the armed groups in
order to document all the details necessary for the eventual prosecution of perpetrators;

d) Amend all relevant legislation regulating the authority to conduct searches, recovery and exhumation activities on the territories which are not controlled by the Government to reflect the role of civil society organizations; and amend rules regulating the delivery and registration of mortal remains, including the collection of identifying information to empower state authorities to accept relevant information from the civil society organizations and groups carrying out such activities;

e) The Office of the Military Prosecutor to investigate all allegations of arbitrary detention and enforced disappearances by Ukrainian military and security forces and in the course of investigations, undertake visits to alleged illegal places of detention on the Government-controlled territories;

f) The Office of the Military Prosecutor to take more pro-active attitude towards
investigation of allegations of human rights violations, such as arbitrary detention, torture and ill-treatment;

g) Ensure no amnesty is granted to those suspected of, accused of, or sentenced for war crimes, crimes against humanity or gross violations of human rights;

h) Develop an administrative procedure allowing for direct recognition of civil registration documents (birth, death and marriage certificates) issued by defacto authorities in Crimea and the armed groups in the east of Ukraine, as an exception to the general rule of non-recognition of acts taken by non-state actors, in line with the jurisprudence of International Court of Justice and the European Court of Human Rights;

i) Develop a comprehensive and effective legal mechanism for civilians whose property has been damaged, looted or seized for military purposes to seek and receive restitution and compensation;

j) Establish a mechanism for periodic independent review by the Parliament of the necessity of derogation measures and lift the derogation as soon as it is no longer strictly required; ensure full compliance of Ukrainian legislation with ICCPR provisions, particularly articles 2(3), 9, 12 , 14 and 17;

k) Following the adoption of the National Human Rights Action Plan in December 2015, allocate adequate resources to ensure its meaningful implementation;

l) Prevent the provision of water or electricity from being used to impose economic or political pressure on the territory controlled by armed groups.

In the words of Ricky Ricardo, Kiev 'has a lot of 'splainin'' to do.

THGRRI

Tuesday, March 8, 2016 2:08 AM

Just who is this rant above me directed at 1kiki. Or is it just another example of you subjectively posting to deflect from something else?

THGRRI

Tuesday, March 8, 2016 2:11 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
So, what about those mass graves of "surgical waste" in Odessa? Weird, huh?

--------------
You can't build a nation with bombs. You can't create a society with guns.

I see you cleaned up your error. The original version is above trapped forever in my comment back to you.

Quote:

SIG

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
So, what about hose mass graves of "surgical waste" in Odessa? Weird, huh? [/QOUTE]

Quote:

Me

Again it is too funny. You just pointed out my lack of ( writing skills ) in another thread. I said I could do that to you time and time again and your next post proves me right. It should be those graves asshole not hose graves.

As for the tragedy of mass grave sites, any thing you post as to who is responsible is suspect.

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1KIKI

Tuesday, March 8, 2016 2:17 AM

Just who is this rant above me directed at 1kiki. Or is it just another example of you subjectively posting to deflect from something else?

"Truly wondrous hypocrisy from someone who howls in outrage at relatively small numbers of civilian casualties killed by Ukraine's forces."

I was replying to this, and quoted it in my post. Did you post it? Then why are you confused about who it's directed to? Once again leading me to question your literacy, intelligence and honesty. I know. You pick. Tell me which one is faulty.

SAGAN: We are releasing vast quantities of carbon dioxide, increasing the greenhouse effect. It may not take much to destabilize the Earth's climate, to convert this heaven, our only home in the cosmos, into a kind of hell.