The State of Freedom in Ukraine

POSTED BY: SIGNYM
UPDATED: Tuesday, September 9, 2025 04:23
VIEWED: 12109
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KPO

Saturday, September 26, 2015 7:05 AM

I didn't ignore any facts, I only pointed out facts that you dishonestly omitted. Only in your warped mind does that make me 'un-objective'.

It's not personal. It's just war.

SIGNYM

Saturday, September 26, 2015 10:11 AM

Took you that long to come up with a reply?

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You can't build a nation with bombs. You can't create a society with guns.

SIGNYM

Saturday, September 26, 2015 10:16 PM

So Ukraine is not the bastion of "freedom" that people might like to believe. How could it be? Their idea of creating a nation is to shell their fellow citizens to death!

In fact, you hear so little about Kiev and freedom, or Kiev and reform, or Kiev and development in the western press that one is tempted to think that things aren't going very well in that direction. The OTHER things you don't hear about ... the jailed/ sanctioned/ assassinated journalists; the opposition politicians getting intimidated and beaten up; young men fleeing the draft; and right-wing expressing its displeasure by throwing hand-grenades into crowds, or engaging in firefights in the mountains of Transcarpathia, or attacking local governments.

At this point, I hear several things about the Kiev-end of Ukraine. On the one hand, I read that there is seething dissatisfaction. https://alethonews.wordpress.com/2015/08/27/stunning-poll-results-show
ing-ukrainians-dissatisfied-with-government-economy-and-war/

Former enlistees, pensioners, rightwingers, moms, democracy-and-reform advocates are all hot about

The rise in utility prices http://www.kyivpost.com/content/business/electricity-alcohol-prices-sh
oot-up-on-sept-1-as-do-government-payouts-396931.html,

the fall of the hryvnia and rampant inflation http://www.unian.info/economics/1134672-sp-lowers-ukraine-foreign-curr
ency-ratings.html,

the lack of reform http://www.kyivpost.com/content/business/investors-dissatisfied-with-s
low-pace-of-reforms-in-ukraine-396818.html

The shabby treatment of enlistees and veterans, and

(In the case of the right wing) lack of advancing their agenda.

OTOH, people in Kiev have reported that folks are indeed strolling the boulevards, eating ice cream, and that the constant drumbeat for war in the Donbas has faded.

Supposedly, the Ukrainian big guns have fallen silent: For the first time in over a year, Kiev isn't shelling its eastern compatriots.

Poroshenko has not only been schooled by Merkel and Hollande, but by NATO: They require him to abide by Minsk-2.

Tactical retreat: NATO for the first time criticizes Ukraine’s government
https://alethonews.wordpress.com/2015/09/24/tactical-retreat-nato-for-
the-first-time-criticizes-ukraines-government/

Possibly as a response, Russia has renewed its shipments of gas to Ukraine. I think I see how this is being played by Russia: Fail to implement Minsk-2, and you will be taken apart economically. Adhere to Minsk-2, and you will be allowed to survive.

Poroshenko has a several tigers by the tail.

The first is the right wing: They were useful in getting rid of Yanukovich, but now that Minsk-2 requires decentralization and official contact with the DPR and the LPR, it's awfully hard to put them back into the box. And they have guns, and they've been shooting at the army and throwing hand-grenades to express their dissatisfaction.

The second is his external investors. Much was made of the deal that was supposed to give Ukraine's bondholders (creditors) a 20% "haircut" along with an extended payback period and higher interest rate (resulting in the same total monies over a longer period of time ... http://agora-dialogue.com/2015/08/29/ukraine-has-reached-a-debt-deal-n
ow-what/ like what Greece was asking for) but that deal is in danger of falling apart, for two reasons:

Russia refuses to be part of the deal. They were not part of negotiations, and they consider (rightly, IMHO) their $3B bonds to be GOVERNMENT bonds, not commercial bonds, guaranteed by the government of Kiev. These, by international law, cannot be reduced in payment.

A second group of creditors representing 25% plan to veto the deal. There is a difference of opinion between the bondholders represented by Franklin Templeton (the majority) and "others".

The oligarchs. It can't be overstated that the oligarchs are looking to expand their power, or at least not lose too much. Most oligarchs have their own private army, their own region where they can smug

KPO

Sunday, September 27, 2015 5:59 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Took you that long to come up with a reply?

Dissecting your nonsense posts is entertaining, but way down the list of important things in my life.

It's not personal. It's just war.

SIGNYM

Sunday, September 27, 2015 8:38 AM

Uh huh. Right.

My tagline ... it isn't a wish or a hope, it's an OBSERVATION. If you have to keep people in line through relentless violence, you aren't creating a society. And whatever it is that you've created, it won't last very long.

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You can't build a nation with bombs. You can't create a society with guns.

KPO

Sunday, September 27, 2015 4:38 PM

Who asked about your tagline? Ha, communists. With your lofty moral pronouncements, that you use exclusively to damn the West, and every Western-aligned country, ignoring the (much worse) actions of Russia, and every Russia-aligned country. Why should anyone take you, or your lofty moral pronouncements seriously? Still fighting the Cold War, and still as hypocritical as ever.

It's not personal. It's just war.

SIGNYM

Sunday, September 27, 2015 5:02 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by kpo:
Who asked about your tagline? Ha, communists. With your lofty moral pronouncements, that you use exclusively to damn the West, and every Western-aligned country, ignoring the (much worse) actions of Russia, and every Russia-aligned country. Why should anyone take you, or your lofty moral pronouncements seriously? Still fighting the Cold War, and still as hypocritical as ever.

It's not personal. It's just war.

Huh, seems like YOU'RE the one who's "still fighting the cold war". Because all you can do is ignore the (much worse) actions of the west. Aren't you the one who said that the Novorossians shelled THEMSELVES?

REALLY???

At least I'm not as big of a hypocrite as you.

Or as big of a liar, either.

--------------
You can't build a nation with bombs. You can't create a society with guns.

SIGNYM

Sunday, September 27, 2015 5:08 PM

Video: Azov mob storms Kharkiv city council

http://off-guardian.org/2015/09/23/video-azov-mob-storms-kharkiv-city-
council/

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You can't build a nation with bombs. You can't create a society with guns.

SIGNYM

Sunday, September 27, 2015 5:38 PM

Just as an aside, you posted this thread

http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=60015 "Russia has a lot to answer for in Syria"

Was it RUSSIA that was active in Syria from 2006 until present? Was it Russia that trained, armed, and funded jihadists in Jordan, to fight in Syria? Was it Russia that endlessly thumped the vanishingly small-to-nonexistant "moderate rebels" in Syria, whose image simply acted as a beard for transfer of arms to ISIS?

Dude, you did exactly as I predicted: You and our idiot buddies laughed like hyenas on a trash dump of fact-free personal insult and fact-free propaganda. Even my prediction didn't seem to dissuade you from your internally-driven mandate of behaving like zombies.

Wow. Good for you! At least you're consistent! Hypocritical, but consistent!

--------------
You can't build a nation with bombs. You can't create a society with guns.

KPO

Monday, September 28, 2015 3:57 PM

Quote:
Just as an aside, you posted this thread

http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=60015 "Russia has a lot to answer for in Syria"

Was it RUSSIA that was active in Syria from 2006 until present? Was it Russia...

That thread laid out exactly what Russia did, and is still doing. Unable to challenge those assertions you boycotted the thread. Everything that you've read in your anti-US blogs you should be posting there, not here. If anywhere.

Quote:
Aren't you the one who said that the Novorossians shelled THEMSELVES?

REALLY???

I don't go around talking about non-existent nationalities, so probably not. But if we're talking about the Russian army and the Russian controlled separatists killing civilians in eastern Ukraine, then absolutely. They killed nearly 500 in the flattening and 'liberation' of Debaltseve alone (an offensive I can remember you and kiki giddily cheerleading at the time).

It's not personal. It's just war.

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