Western or Southern ?

POSTED BY: ELKA
UPDATED: Thursday, November 7, 2002 03:31
VIEWED: 12237
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LIVINGIMPAIRED

Sunday, November 3, 2002 12:41 PM

No, actually, the Southern states DID have to re-apply. During the war, there were two schools of thought: it was possible to leave the union, and it was not possible to leave the union. Lincoln believed that once a state joined the union, it could never leave. In other words, even though the South had broken off, they were still apart of the United States, and when the war was over, everyone could just kiss and make up. The End. But some moron thought it would be a good idea to kill Lincoln, and people from the first school of thought took over. They thought that the South HAD left the Union, and since they lost, they had to reapply and rejoin. There were a bunch on conditions for re-entry, among them that their new state constitions must include clauses to the effect of "no slaves." This, of course, led to this bitter, nasty, vicious reconstruction period, which as we all know happened after the construction, which was so shotty that they had to reconstuct.

Who says you can't learn stuff from TV?

Oh, and I don't think there was anything rude in that post. It's not rude to have a different viewpoint.

________________

At first it's just a place, and then you start to make memories and then it's like... that's where Spike slept, and there... that's where Anya and I drowned the Separvo demon and right here, here's where my heart got all ripped out... I really hate this place

NONONSENSE

Sunday, November 3, 2002 3:15 PM

Great history lesson. I never learned American history in such detail (I was born and raised in Spain). I enjoyed reading these threads. Thanks for the input.

PS: I don't think any of them were rude; they were all very informative.

DELVO

Sunday, November 3, 2002 3:41 PM

Elka, accusing Thegn of rudeness for helpfully answering your question was rude.

Anyway, the things you mention in arguing that it's a Southern theme are not exclusive to the South; they are just as much Western as Southern. Actually a better way to put it might be "rural". The West and the South were (and to some extent still are) the most rural parts of the USA, with the Northeast being more urbanized and industrialized than either. And the setting in which the Firefly characters find themselves is the future's multiplanetary version of a rural region with little urbanization or industrialization, which they have in common with both Southerners and Westerners, not just one or the other.

DELVO

Sunday, November 3, 2002 3:41 PM

ILOVEJAYNE

Monday, November 4, 2002 8:19 PM

The line between Southern and Western is thin and very stretchy. Take Texas, for example. I usually think of it as "out west", with the cattle trails and pioneers and such, but it was also a part of the Confederacy.

THEGN

Tuesday, November 5, 2002 4:21 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Techboy:
I agree. I was thinking how Thegn's post could be taken as being rude. I don't agree with what was said about the southern states having to "re-apply". That was an initiative to reaffirm that they were part of the Union. I could be wrong, but I believe part of that was so new officials could be elected to the Congrass.

Well, that's the "politically correct" way of looking at it.

And it was with language just like that that the North justified the atrocities they committed in the South. But that was long time ago, and the North certainly didn't have a monopoly on atrocities.

I appreciate everyone's comments about my alleged rudeness.

I'm still not sure why my comments seemed rude, but I do apologies if I come across that way to you. It was unintentional I assure you.

-----------
In the Dark Ages, Romano-Celtic Britannia was over-run by Viking-like cultures collectively called the Anglo-Saxons. They were led by warlords called Drytinns, and the greatest warriors among them were the Thegns.

RHEA

Tuesday, November 5, 2002 6:00 PM

Double post - see below

RHEA

Tuesday, November 5, 2002 6:00 PM

To say outright that the West was primarily settled by displaced Southerners is simply inaccurate.

There were too many countries who widely settled the west (France, Spain and Mexico, for example) -not to mention settlers from all over the existing states - to simply make such a sweeping generalization.

However, I agree that Firefly is about being on the losing side of a war, and how that affects Mal and company.

And BTW, I don't think Thegn's post was the least bit rude - just passionate.

ELKA

Tuesday, November 5, 2002 10:17 PM

Apology accepted and please accept mine, but just let me get in a feeww more comments

The mass exodus to the West, with Wagon Trains and Donner Parties, etc, didn't really occur until after the reconstruction period, and it wasn't caused by fleeing southerners, it was about gold. Although some people did begin to migrate west after the civil war, it was primarily men, not families or large groups.

As for all the atrocities commited by the North upon the South, the South upon their slaves, etc, it is important to remember when thinking of this as a fight about human rights or their denial, that the Civil War wasn't really about slavery, it was about state's individual rights, taxes, and labour costs.

But, to go Back to the beginning, ALL i was trying to say was that in the West as we think of it (all this studd below references 'Shindig'):

1)men didn't get all dressed up and pretified in frock coats and scarfy neck ties.
2)women didn't wear fancy ruffly dresses with hoop skirts and get all gussied.
3) slaves...slave labor...mentioned a lot in that episode.
4) they didn't have Catillions with ornate ballrooms, ladies and gentleman dressed up in all their finery, and buffet tables with 'some kinda hot cheese' on them.

Commander Elka
The bumpkiniest of the Bumpkin Army.

RHEA

Wednesday, November 6, 2002 12:18 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by ELKA:
But, to go Back to the beginning, ALL i was trying to say was that in the West as we think of it (all this studd below references 'Shindig'):

1)men didn't get all dressed up and pretified in frock coats and scarfy neck ties.
2)women didn't wear fancy ruffly dresses with hoop skirts and get all gussied.
3) slaves...slave labor...mentioned a lot in that episode.
4) they didn't have Catillions with ornate ballrooms, ladies and gentleman dressed up in all their finery, and buffet tables with 'some kinda hot cheese' on them.

I'm not so sure about that - perhaps not in Tombstone

, but in San Francisco or other larger cities they most certainly did (the point about slaves excepted, naturally).

And since I live in the San Francisco Bay area, I kind of know what I'm talking about. Some of the fancier homes in the City date back to that era (gold rush, anyway). Just visit Nob Hill some time.

Again, if you take the analogy too far, it'll break down. Firefly isn't the Old West, it's in the future.

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