Scientists agree ... Consensus on Global Warming
POSTED BY: Ghoulman
UPDATED: Friday, February 10, 2006 11:42
VIEWED: 22755
PAGE 3 of 21
sigmanunki,
We're killing ourselves? Wasn't it 30 yrs ago that the Ohio River caught on fire because of all the dumping and filth? Things aren't as bad as they use to be, but I'm not so naive to think that we've done ALL that we can. I remember the doom and gloom images from back in the 70's and the 80's about how horrible the world will be by the year 2000. Well, 2000 came and went, and we're no where near those catastrophic predictions.
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
sigmanunki,
We're killing ourselves? Wasn't it 30 yrs ago that the Ohio River caught on fire because of all the dumping and filth? Things aren't as bad as they use to be, but I'm not so naive to think that we've done ALL that we can. I remember the doom and gloom images from back in the 70's and the 80's about how horrible the world will be by the year 2000. Well, 2000 came and went, and we're no where near those catastrophic predictions.
Since then, the laws have changed. We've become better when it comes to these things... sorta. Chemical dumping, etc has been exteremely restricted, but the other things that effect the atmosphere (ie greenhouse gases) haven't.
How about how we drug our food? Do you really think that all the antibiotics/other drugs that are injected into the animal aren't in it's meat? Do you not think that that has an impact on our health?
Back in those days that you refer to, our cars were gas guslers. Then the automotive industry made a more fuel efficient car. Problem is, is that far more people drive now than then. I mean, how many cars per family on average did a family in the 70's have? How many cars per family now? More. How many people walk when they can in the US instead of driving? Not that many.
We (North America) have become worse in a more subtle way. You seem to be ignoring the failing health of people in general. You seem to be ignoring our polluted water tables, etc. ie Just because you still can get clean water, doesn't mean that your getting it from the same place nor does it mean that even the cleanest water availible doesn't require a lot of processing before human consumption.
Remember that thread a little while ago:
http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=18&t=6990
"
200 Number of regulation rollbacks downgrading or weakening environmental laws in Bush's first three years in office.
"
"
0 Number of times Bush mentioned global warming, clean air, clean water, pollution or environment in his 2004 State of the Union speech. His father was the last president to go through an entire State of the Union address without mentioning the environment.
"
"
1 Number of paragraphs devoted to global warming in the EPA's 600-page "Draft Report on the Environment" presented in 2003.
"
...
There is more in there about exactly how much GW cares about the environment. The read is quite enlightening about how GW "addresses" environmental concerns.
How is this helping address the environmental concerns of people? How is this helping?
It is clear that something drastic must be done before something drastic happens to our planet. She can take it, but it is clear that we cannot.
So, some questions for you.
Do you really think that it is natural to have so many people with asthma? Do you think that it is natural/healthy for cities to have smog alerts? Do you really think that it is natural/healthy to have a lot of cities declare that it's air is so polluted that it's more healthy to exercise indoors instead of doing it outdoors?
If you'd take those narrow minded goggles off for just a second, you'd see *tonnes* of environment related illnesses on the rise, and *a lot* more evidence around you than you'd care to admit. The problems are all around you, you just have your blinders on is all.
Environmental policy needs to change, period.
----
"Canada being mad at you is like Mr. Rogers throwing a brick through your window." -Jon Stewart, The Daily Show
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ghoulman:
The scientists (yes, science is real!) have been agreeing on Global Warming for years, it's the White House and thier cronies who have failed to give a rat's tiny pink arse.
Any news on the US and the Kyoto Accord or should I just assume Bush pooped on it? :x
I post this so those with a conscience can argue to the liars that yes, indeed, the sky is falling and they are to blame.
From Yahoo! news:
Climate Change Impact? Look in Your Backyard
By Juana Ines Casas
BUENOS AIRES, Argentina (Reuters) - To witness the impact of a warming planet, one need not make a costly trip to the melting Arctic ice cap. Proof of climate change is right there in most people's backyards, scientists said on Tuesday.
**************************
Looked in my backyard this morning. Snow, 3 inches. Pretty much same as last year and year before that.
Turns out it was snow falling last night, not the sky. Nobody's to blame...just happens this time of year.
As I was gassing up my SUV this morning I paused to reflect on the Kyoto Accords. I heard a noise, it was an Accord spinning its wheels trying to get out of the parking lot onto the icy roads. Decided to stick with my SUV.
H
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Sigmanunki:
Quote:
00 Number of regulation rollbacks downgrading or weakening environmental laws in Bush's first three years in office.
"
"
0 Number of times Bush mentioned global warming, clean air, clean water, pollution or environment in his 2004 State of the Union speech. His father was the last president to go through an entire State of the Union address without mentioning the environment.
"
"
1 Number of paragraphs devoted to global warming in the EPA's 600-page "Draft Report on the Environment" presented in 2003.
"
...
There is more in there about exactly how much GW cares about the environment. The read is quite enlightening about how GW "addresses" environmental concerns.
How is this helping address the environmental concerns of people? How is this helping?
It is clear that something drastic must be done before something drastic happens to our planet. She can take it, but it is clear that we cannot.
So, some questions for you.
Do you really think that it is natural to have so many people with asthma? Do you think that it is natural/healthy for cities to have smog alerts? Do you really think that it is natural/healthy to have a lot of cities declare that it's air is so polluted that it's more healthy to exercise indoors instead of doing it outdoors?
If you'd take those narrow minded goggles off for just a second, you'd see *tonnes* of environment related illnesses on the rise, and *a lot* more evidence around you than you'd care to admit. The problems are all around you, you just have your blinders on is all.
First of all, drop the 'narrow minded' card. If someone has a differnt view than you, that does not make them 'narrow minded ' by default. You speak of all these 'problems' that are everywhere. I'm out and about in the world every day, and don't see them. Does that mean I'm living in Utopica? Nope. But life is by definition a struggle, and I think folks tend to forget that.
Just because the people on the t.v. SAY it's not healthy to exercise outdoors doesn't make it so. Sorry, but I live in one of those cities that has 'smog alerts' and I've never had one hint of a problem breathing. Do I see the smog ? Yep, in the summer. When the conditions exist that, on occasion, does trap more particulates in the air. The term 'hazy days of summer' isn't new. I also know that tougher air quality controls are being put in place, even where the actaul air quality has gotten BETTER.
As for the President and what he SAYS about 'global warming' in a S.O.T.U. address, is irrelevent. It's his position that the threat of global warming is highly suspect and /or greatly exaggerated. I happen to agree with him on this issue. It makes perfect sense that if he doesn't view global warming to be a major issue, then there's little reason for him to pay it much attention.
And don't make the judgement that if others don't see eye to eye with you on a topic that it means they don't CARE. That's the biggest crock of go se in the world. We all have our lists of priorities and just because someone elses doesn't match yours, point for point, don't make them out to be some sort of villian. No body WANTS dirty air, dirty water or contaminated food, and it's just folly to project the idea that they do.
You actually sound a lot like I did when I was in H.S. I had this very engaging discussion w/ a classmate about how man kind was using up the natural resources and we'd better be careful...or else! I had believed what I was seeing on the news and reading in the papers about the deteriorating air/ water quality, food resources would be taxed to the limit.... it was the end of the world unless we acted RIGHT NOW!!!
That was almost 25 yrs ago. And while I do agree that we can do better, and we HAVE done better in some areas, there's no need for alarm.
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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For those of you who want to read the article that our dear "Hero" is refering to:
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20041214/sc_nm/environment
_climate_dc_3
But what he doesn't mention is the most interesting. For instance:
"
Butterflies that migrate to the Netherlands from Southern Europe used to arrive in May, but the recent warm years have produced first sightings in January.
"
You know, from May to January. Seems a significant time shift to me. But, maybe our "Hero" doesn't think that 4 months is significant.
There are more tid-bits in there to be sure.
All this kind of spells warmer to me.
Also, while talking to my wife, she has stated that because of the warmer temps. the apple orchards in Germany have had to switch the apple variety as the one prior doesn't survive or do well in the current climate.
Hmmm, seems to be changing to me... and everybody else that actually reads the articles.
Hero, thanks for another misleading post.
----
"Canada being mad at you is like Mr. Rogers throwing a brick through your window." -Jon Stewart, The Daily Show
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@AURaptor:
You make the fallacy that only I get my information about this sort of thing from the news papers; I don't. Most of the information I get comes from a wonderful community of science.
Secondly, I have asked many questions in my previous posts that you have skillfully avoided. Perhaps you should try to answer those questions before you make a knee-jerk reaction towards me.
You may be able to ignore all the evidence that global warming is happening, but I won't.
Third, you also seem to be ignoring any and all arguments that I've put forth based on the assumption that we aren't causing global warming. This is where I get the narrow minded opinion of you. Care to change that?
Lastly, these things are starting to effect the economy:
http://www.energy.ca.gov/global_climate_change/
"
Climate change matters to California. The repercussions of a change in climate are serious. They challenge the state's infrastructure investments and touch all sectors of the economy: water supply, agriculture, forestry, energy production, health, transportation, tourism and others.
"
also
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Responding to climate change need not be an additional burden but can, in fact, promote economic development, ensure energy and economic security, and improve public health and safety.
"
So, it can be good for the economy.
Some notes:
I never said that people want dirty... I implied that people don't care and/or don't know.
I never said that if we don't do something that it'll all be over unless we do something RIGHT NOW! I stated that if we don't do something we're all 
. And I said that I don't think that it is too late... explicitly. Read before you imply these things.
And don't try to minimize what I know and think about climate change by stating that this is similar (read: not exactly as you imply) to what you thought in highschool. There are a lot of very respected scientists that this is what they do that think the same as me. So, you must forgive me if I listen to them and not a layman like yourself.
----
"Canada being mad at you is like Mr. Rogers throwing a brick through your window." -Jon Stewart, The Daily Show
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SigmaNunki
Many respected scientist also thought that Dinosaurs were cold blooded. Some still do. There will always be disagreements when it comes to matters of science. That is the beauty and the bane of science, there is no 'absolute and complete ' conclusion.
Yes, I am a layman on this issue and make no claims to the contrary. But I too read up on science, and am aware of how competing views can grow into heated( no pun intended ) rivalries and even deep seeded animostity.
I'm also aware of how politics can influence one's perspective. While reading up on some volcanic info in regards to global warming, I came across a rather thinly veiled comment about how President Bush was 'installed' in 2000. With out opening up that can of worms, let me say that there was no reason for that comment to be put in there UNLESS the writer had some agenda in which to promote. Slipping that in simply wasn't germane to the issue at hand.
Finally:
- I made no 'fallacy' of how you obtain your info. I was reiterating MY personal experience. Don't try to read more into my words than I indend.
- I'll try to get back to your questions as best I can. There has been no attempt to intentionally avoid your questions.
- Ignore the evidence? Right now , it's mid December, and the outside temp is BELOW normal. But more to the point, my perspective on this issue isn't to focus on the past 10,50 or even 1000 yrs., but 100,000's and even millions. 75 million yrs ago, the Gulf of Mexico covered the heartland of the US and reached all the way up into Canada, seperating the West and the East US by a shallow, warm sea. The earth gradually cools and heats up over not decades but millions of yrs. During those cycles, there are bound to be fluctutations. We don't know the causes of this, but we DO know it occured long before man ever roamed the savannahs of Africa.
- I doubt I'll be able to change your opinion. As for my part, I'll continue to follow this issue and position my views according to the data. If it changes, then so be it. I wonder if you can be so 'open minded' yourself.
" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "
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@AURaptor:
It's just not many scientists, it's a scientific concensus. There is a significant difference.
I listen to scientists that research this stuff because they know. If they figure something out that changes there minds, then I'll read, understand and follow suit.
You say that it's below the average temp where you are. Well, if you do indeed read up on this stuff then you are aware that global warming is for the global average temp. That there are predictions of more exterem weather. That this temp of your fits the description.
And by the way, if some scientists somehow work in some opinion about some social issue in there paper, it in no way affects there results. There results are there results, it speaks for itself. How does working something more in effect the results? It doesn't. And if it was published in a journal, then it went through peer review and as such is considered good science. Thus, there is no reason to doubt it's conclusions.
And by the way, you dismissed my post that linked to a previous thread about what GW had done. You seemed to think (I have this opinion b/c it's what you typed) that it was from a S.O.T.U address. Well, it wasn't. It's what he did do in the first 3 years of office.
But, since I don't think that we can produce anything more productive, I'll say, you stay on your side and I'll stay on mine. Time will tell what's what. Somehow I think that'll be somewhere in the middle.
----
"Canada being mad at you is like Mr. Rogers throwing a brick through your window." -Jon Stewart, The Daily Show
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20 Kt, not 7
I used the figure 17 plus or minus 2
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It seems AURaptor is waiting for .... something. He understands science evolves, and so, rather than acceed to what is NOW understood, he is hoping for something more compatible with his own preconceived outlook. And that is the difference betwween science and dogma - science goes where the data takes it, dogma does not.
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