Civility
POSTED BY: SIGNYM
UPDATED: Friday, September 5, 2025 17:55
VIEWED: 16240
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I heard a show on NPR about civility. One of the participants was talking about how Trump supporters are racist, and that the only way to confront them and "make progress" is to be uncivil. What I heard as a constant subtext was win at all costs. Another participant who is an AIDS activist, who could never agree to participate in the ACT UP confrontations - but who nonetheless understood what they were trying to do - disagreed with the first participant. He kept saying that the current incivility (by liberals) seems to be purposeless.
I think was he was driving at was that the ACT UP confrontations were targeted and had specific goals in mind, whereas the personal incivility advocated by the first participant merely hardened positions and made thing worse.
I agree with him. When someone is driven out of a restaurant, what has that crowd/ mob accomplished? Will that person change their POV? Doubtful.
It's as RF said: no matter HOW civil you are, you will not convince anyone to be vegan. OTOH, the other side of the coin is: No matter how UNcivil you are, you will never convince anyone to give up meat. In fact, you will probably only harden them in their POV.
******
I have, at times, expressed the same thought as participant No 1. I know of several very large, peaceful demonstrations of somewhere in the realm of a million people (the 1976 pre-ERA demonstration in Washington was one such) that made absolutely no difference at all. Sometimes, it seemed to me, that you just gotta pick up some rocks to put pressure on the power structure.
On the other hand, personal incivility is worse than pointless, it's counterproductive. What does the aggressor hope to accomplish, other than getting a "lift" by expressing their own anger? Does it change anyone's POV ... except to the negative? Does it do anything to future encounters other than fuel future violence? When it's just a case of people talking to people, hurling insults may feel good temporarily but it doesn't really create progress, all it creates is division.
Now, I personally believe that we Americans face far larger problems than the ones that we're distracted by, and that being divided amongst ourselves is a fools' game.
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Quote:How do you imagine ACT UP was any different, in real terms - as opposed to different slogans. Weren't they really just as pointless as today, and equally ineffective?
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
I heard a show on NPR about civility. One of the participants was talking about how Trump supporters are racist, and that the only way to confront them and "make progress" is to be uncivil. What I heard as a constant subtext was win at all costs. Another participant who is an AIDS activist, who could never agree to participate in the ACT UP confrontations - but who nonetheless understood what they were trying to do - disagreed with the first participant. He kept saying that the current incivility (by liberals) seems to be purposeless.
I think was he was driving at was that the ACT UP confrontations were targeted and had specific goals in mind, whereas the personal incivility advocated by the first participant merely hardened positions and made thing worse.
I agree with him. When someone is driven out of a restaurant, what has that crowd/ mob accomplished? Will that person change their POV? Doubtful.
It's as RF said: no matter HOW civil you are, you will not convince anyone to be vegan. OTOH, the other side of the coin is: No matter how UNcivil you are, you will never convince anyone to give up meat. In fact, you will probably only harden them in their POV.
******
I have, at times, expressed the same thought as participant No 1. I know of several very large, peaceful demonstrations of somewhere in the realm of a million people (the 1976 pre-ERA demonstration in Washington was one such) that made absolutely no difference at all. Sometimes, it seemed to me, that you just gotta pick up some rocks to put pressure on the power structure.
On the other hand, personal incivility is worse than pointless, it's counterproductive. What does the aggressor hope to accomplish, other than getting a "lift" by expressing their own anger? Does it change anyone's POV ... except to the negative? Does it do anything to future encounters other than fuel future violence? When it's just a case of people talking to people, hurling insults may feel good temporarily but it doesn't really create progress, all it creates is division.
Now, I personally believe that we Americans face far larger problems than the ones that we're distracted by, and that being divided amongst ourselves is a fools' game.
I'm sure NPR spun their standard narrative, but I mean in Real World terms.
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I think "How to Win Friends and Influence People" should be required reading for every kid in high school.
Quote:
Criticism is futile because it puts a person on the defensive and usually makes them strive to justify themselves. ~Dale Carnagie
Do Right, Be Right. :)
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Why are Blumpists so violent?
Man yells, "Make America Great Again!" Before shooting 6 people dead.
Man wearing, "Make America Great Again" hat murders 2 strangers for no reason.
A Trump supporter murders 2 police officers because they told him he couldn't wave a Confederate flag at a high school football game.
Two men beat a homeless man with a metal bar and urinate on him screaming, “Donald Trump was right, all these illegals need to be deported,” When asked for a comment about the incident Trump defends them saying, "My supporters are very passionate. They love this country and they want this country to be great again."
Trump supporter attacks a Hispanic man and a Muslim student at a gas station while yelling, "Trump! Trump! Trump!"
Trump supporter stabs a black man unprovoked because he was holding hands with a white woman, tells police they need to release him so he can attend a Trump rally that night.
Trump supporter attacks Muslim woman at airport.
A Trump supporter punches a 70 year old protester in the face.
Trump supporter arrested for brutally beating protester.
3 Trump supporters arrested planning terrorist attack to kill Muslims.
Trump supporter confuses an Indian man for a Muslim at restaurant and says, "Things are different now, I don't want you sand n*ggers sitting next to me." Before attacking the man.
"We got a new President you fucking f*ggots." Men yell as they attack gay man.
Trump supporters track down and brutally beat an artist because she made a painting of Trump with a small penis.
Trump supporter who sucker punched protester: “Next time, we might have to kill them.”
Trump is asked to comment on his supporters brutally beating a black man, he responds with, “He was obnoxious! Maybe he should have been roughed up,”
"You fucking gorillas and baby monkeys, We voted for Trump. Trump's building a wall, beaners, and you'll be going back to where you belong." Man yells at black elementary school children unprovoked before he swerves his car at them attempting to hit them.
Trump supporter assaults woman at rally and then says he wouldn't of done it if Trump didn't inspire him to attack her.
Trump supporter recognizes famous anti-Trump playwright, walks up to him in a restaurant and says, “Sieg Heil! Fuck you, you Jew cunts, we’re gonna kill all of you." before attacking him.
Trump supporters beat black man so badly he’s hospitalized for concussion and call him the n-word.
Trump supporter pepper sprays a 15-year-old girl point-blank in the face after another Trump supporter groped her breasts, shouting “n*gger lover” as she attempted to run away.
Trump supporter walks up to a black man in the middle of a downtown area and says, "Donald Trump will deport you." Before punching the black man.
“Trump is going to win and if you don’t like it I’m going to beat your ass,” Trump supporter yells at random black woman outside of convenient store.
Man attacks and kicks Muslim airport employee shouting, "Trump is here now, he will get rid of all of you."
In 8 months Trump supporters attacked protesters at 20 different rallies.
Trump supporter tracks down a local Latino Democratic political candidate and tries to run him and his elderly mother over with a car. (The Latino candidate is also a former marine.)
"This is for Donald Trump!" man yells as he runs up a Latino person and punches them in the head.
Trump supporter goes to Hillary Clinton rally to disrupt the event, ends up punching someone when asked to leave.
Trump supporter punches, chokes and slaps protesters on video during rally.
An angry mob of Trump supporters brutally beat and grab a mans genitals because he held up a, "Republicans Against Trump" sign.
A Trump supporter yells, "Get your black kids out of here. Do you even have a job? Do you know what a job is, n*gger?" Before physically attacking a black man who had co
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Quote:Signym, sorry to piss all over your worthless argument, but there is The Case Against Civility, In Five Charts.
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Now, I personally believe that we Americans face far larger problems than the ones that we're distracted by, and that being divided amongst ourselves is a fools' game.
www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2018/06/27/the-case-against-civili
ty-in-five-charts/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.eab5226fe254
Chart #2 is particularly interesting because it points to an extremely unfair disadvantage for Democrats compared to Republicans. And it is built into the Constitution. There will need to be some extreme rudeness to take the unfairness back out. But you could go all the way to the Civil War for another example where the pro-slavery South believed that the North was being hideously rude about the institution of slavery. To remove the unfairness to slaves from the Constitution required extremely rude killing. Americans weren't smart about ending slavery, unlike the British, for example. The Southen Americans could have learned from the British, but the Southerners refused to give in on the point during debate that blacks are human.
Slavery Abolition Act 1833
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_Abolition_Act_1833
Quote:Sometimes, Signym, a slave-owner crossed a line he does not recognize or refused to even acknowledge could exist and the slave killed the owner. I know it didn't end slavery for tens of millions in the Antebellum South, but many, many slave-owners were deserving of death long before the Civil War began. Some slave-owners got what they deserved during the war. Many others did not because they survived. Just a personal opinion. Opinions differed widely before 1860 about limits on what a slave-owner rightly could do to his property. Nowadays opinions differ on what a Republican rightly can do to an alien.
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
On the other hand, personal incivility is worse than pointless, it's counterproductive. What does the aggressor hope to accomplish, other than getting a "lift" by expressing their own anger? Does it change anyone's POV ... except to the negative? Does it do anything to future encounters other than fuel future violence?
Chart #2. The Senate
Similar dynamics are increasingly at play in the U.S. Senate. Each state gets two senators regardless of population. With the U.S. population becoming ever more concentrated in urban areas, residents of states with large populations have seen their clout in the Senate diminish, relative to residents of smaller states.
One way to think of this is in terms of the minimum share of the U.S. population you would need to elect a majority of seats in the U.S. Senate. As political scientists Frances E. Lee and Bruce Oppenheimer illustrate in their book “Sizing Up the Senate,” that share has been steadily declining.
In 1810, for instance, you needed well over 30 percent of the population to elect a majority of senators. Today, that share has shrunken to just 17 percent. While this is a theoretical minimum value, it serves to illustrate Lee and Oppenheimer's point: “With a few brief exceptions, the Senate has become more malapportioned, and therefore less representative, over the course of American history,” they write.
Today, California's two senators represent the same number of people as the 44 Senators from the country's 22 least-populous states. Wyoming's 579,000 mostly conservative residents effectively cancel out the Senate representation of 40 million predominantly liberal people in California. That makes it much more difficult for residents of liberal states to enact their preferred policies via the Senate.
The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly
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And on the topic of diets, nobody is going to change theirs unless they want to. If you had told me a year ago I'd be gluten free I would have laughed at you.
I've broken that diet 3 times since it has started. I've decided that if I'm out with people or somebody is cooking for me I'm not going to put any restrictions on them, since this is a lifestyle choice and it's not because I'm allergic to it (well... I've never been diagnosed with anything, but if I am it's not a life or death thing).
I can't speak for everyone, but making the change in my diet was not really that hard. It was certainly easier than giving up booze or pot, and infinitely easier than giving up coffee or cigarettes.
The pains are still there, but my job is very labor intensive and I'm not kid anymore. I've also done a lot of damage to my body over the years. I do hope that by continuing down the path I'm on that I can get rid of the pains without resorting to any drugs, even over the counter ones. The one thing positive I can say about being gluten free though is that I haven't had this much energy since I was in my early 20's. If my feet didn't hurt so much after 8 hours of work I could easily do another 4 hours of work before I went home.
I'm actually hoping I can get to that point because I'm sure there wouldn't be any arguement from management if I were to put in 12 hour days and then I could get in a 36 hour work week and still have four days off. :)
One day at a time baby.
I cannot stress enough how great a gluten free diet is. If you can will yourself to start it and stick with it for a month or two, you will be amazed at how much more energy you will have.
Do Right, Be Right. :)
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Quote:Your link doesn't work because I need a subscription to access the material, so if you really want a response to this material, you'll have to copy it here.
Now, I personally believe that we Americans face far larger problems than the ones that we're distracted by, and that being divided amongst ourselves is a fools' game. - SIGNY
Signym, sorry to piss all over your worthless argument, but there is The Case Against Civility, In Five Charts.
www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2018/06/27/the-case-against-civili
ty-in-five-charts/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.eab5226fe254
Quote:There was a point being made on NPR about this, and what I heard was how the Senate gave too much representation to rural states, and "gerrymandering".
Chart #2 is particularly interesting because it points to an extremely unfair disadvantage for Democrats compared to Republicans. And it is built into the Constitution.
Well, as far as the first point is concerned, our government was formed the way it was formed to get the "buy-in" of the original colonies. If you want to change THAT, you will need a Constitutional Amendment. Being personally uncivil to me, SIX, KIKI, or individual Trump supporters or staff members is not going to get you very far. NOT IF YOU INTEND TO PROCEED DEMOCRATICALLY, ANYWAY.
As far as fixing "gerrymandering" ... Democrats, when they were in power, gerrymandered district lines right up there with Republicans. If you want to gerrymander the lines back in Democrat's favor, then you will have to make sure that you have control of State Legislatures in 2020, after the Census is done. That might mean... yanno... appealing to a wider set of voters, and representing EVERYBODY's interests .... farmers as well as city-dwellers, whites as well as blacks, men in addition to women, citizens but not illegal immigrants, and religious people along with agnostics. That means finding the CORE INTERESTS of what draws America together, interests that we all have IN COMMON, and NOT playing off one group against another with increasingly fragmented identity politics, or focusing on baloney like RUSSIA!!. Maybe you can start by not characterizing a large number of Americans as "deplorables"? THAT sort of incivility really doesn't work in your favor.
Quote:I think I just pointed out how extreme rudeness doesn't work in your favor. Not if you intend to proceed democratically, anyway.
There will need to be some extreme rudeness to take the unfairness back out.
Quote:THIS from the person who castigated KIKI for going back to 1869 for a legal opinion on immigrants' rights? Dood, you invalidated anything else you might have to say on the topic if you reference anything that far back!
But you could go all the way to the Civil War for another example where the pro-slavery South believed that the North was being hideously rude about the institution of slavery.
Quote:Well, like I said: IF references that far back in time are irrele
On the other hand, personal incivility is worse than pointless, it's counterproductive. What does the aggressor hope to accomplish, other than getting a "lift" by expressing their own anger? Does it change anyone's POV ... except to the negative? Does it do anything to future encounters other than fuel future violence? - SIGNY
Sometimes, Signym, a slave-owner crossed a line he does not recognize or refused to even acknowledge could exist and the slave killed the owner. I know it didn't end slavery for tens of millions in the Antebellum South, but many, many slave-owners were deserving of death long before the Civil War began. Some slave-owners got what they deserved during the war. Many others did not because they survived. Just a personal opinion. Opinions differed widely before 1860 about limits on what a slave-owner rightly could do to his property. Nowadays opinions differ on what a Republican rightly can do to an alien.- SECOND
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Quote:Have you gotten that canola oil?? It's very VERY necessary in order for you body to make anti-inflammatory hormones.
And on the topic of diets, nobody is going to change theirs unless they want to. If you had told me a year ago I'd be gluten free I would have laughed at you.
I've broken that diet 3 times since it has started. I've decided that if I'm out with people or somebody is cooking for me I'm not going to put any restrictions on them, since this is a lifestyle choice and it's not because I'm allergic to it (well... I've never been diagnosed with anything, but if I am it's not a life or death thing).
I can't speak for everyone, but making the change in my diet was not really that hard. It was certainly easier than giving up booze or pot, and infinitely easier than giving up coffee or cigarettes.
The pains are still there, but my job is very labor intensive and I'm not kid anymore. I've also done a lot of damage to my body over the years.
Quote:It it your heels or your whole foot? Because if just your heels, you have plantar fasciitis, and SIX, I had it... tried everything (anti-inflammatories like ibuprofen, stretching, foot soaks, RX'ed heel cups, staying off my feet) and I found a pair of $10 inserts that really worked.
I do hope that by continuing down the path I'm on that I can get rid of the pains without resorting to any drugs, even over the counter ones. The one thing positive I can say about being gluten free though is that I haven't had this much energy since I was in my early 20's. If my feet didn't hurt so much after 8 hours of work I could easily do another 4 hours of work before I went home.
Quote:Gluten-free here too, SIX. I was dxed with a number of food allergies (altho allergic to a crap-ton of OTHER foods not allergic to wheat, per test) and also specifically tested for gluten sensitivity (not gluten sensitive either, per test) but when I took wheat out of my diet the arthritic aches and pains almost went completely away. I sleep a zillion times better now that my shoulders and hips don't hurt. I can't explain it, but it works for me.
I'm actually hoping I can get to that point because I'm sure there wouldn't be any argument from management if I were to put in 12 hour days and then I could get in a 36 hour work week and still have four days off. :)
One day at a time baby. I cannot stress enough how great a gluten free diet is. If you can will yourself to start it and stick with it for a month or two, you will be amazed at how much more energy you will have.
Quote:Good words to live by.
Do Right, Be Right. :)
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Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor - William Blake
As long as you insist that everything is the Republicans'/ Democrats' fault, then you fail to grasp the REAL problem with American politics.
America is an oligarchy http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=57876
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Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
On the other hand, personal incivility is worse than pointless, it's counterproductive.
From the person who posts graphic images of mutilated children you would be the authority of what incivility is - good one.
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Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
THIS from the person who castigated KIKI for going back to 1869 for a legal opinion on immigrants' rights? Dood, you invalidated anything else you might have to say on the topic if you reference anything that far back!
Completely different argument.
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