The Real Immigrants

POSTED BY: SHINYGOODGUY
UPDATED: Sunday, August 30, 2026 16:36
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1KIKI

Monday, May 1, 2017 5:52 AM

Brenda

I'm curious what you see as the answer. The Canadians made, I thought, a 30% attempt with Nunavut.

The US still has its disgusting reservation system.

Care to try addressing the facts, again?

Or do you shoot nothing but blanks?

Originally posted by G:
"I coined the slogan "We Suck!"© many years ago."
G is an avowed Putin-loving, pro-Russian, anti-American troll.

1KIKI

Monday, May 1, 2017 10:34 AM

Hi Brenda

I know I don't know nearly enough. This is what I took away from Nunavut. IIRC it had to do with a broken treaty, and the case went up through Canadian court ranks. At the time I remember being impressed that 1) it was allowed to be heard in the courts, 2) the court ruled in favor of the plaintiffs, and 3) a pretty large amount of land (more than a token) was handed over as settlement. So, at least in that regard I think the Canadian government, in this day and age, is far ahead of the US in terms of fairness.

OTOH I know that both governments have a deeply shameful past regarding Native Americans. That includes rounding them up, forcible corralling them onto marginal lands, and removing children from their homes to make good, English-speaking X-tians out of them. And in a lot of ways the past has yet to be rectified. IITC the Department of the Interior Bureau of Indian Affairs manages oil and gas leases on Indian land - apparently because somebody thinks no one else is capable. And that has lead to a lot of tribes getting ripped off.

I'm not sure what people want. And I don't know how they see their choices. All I can do is explain how I see it.

Sadly, I believe the traditional lifestyle has been too disrupted to be an option for the future. And at least here in the US, drugs and gangs have stolen many young people from their homes and families. So at this point, I don't see a traditional lifestyle on the reservation as a choice.

To me, that makes the reservation another form of ghetto, or barrio, where the people who grow up there don't have the tools to be fully competitive in the dominant society (such as it is).
So, the pathway, as I see it, is for Native Americans to be incorporated into the larger society, but return home to the reservations as time permits.

It isn't something that I think is desirable. It's just the way it looks to me.

Originally posted by G:
"I coined the slogan "We Suck!"© many years ago."
G is an avowed Putin-loving, pro-Russian, anti-American troll.

SHINYGOODGUY

Monday, May 1, 2017 11:45 AM

Ya know something 6, I applaud your response. Spoken from the heart.

We all crave that human experience of belonging, to a group, to family, to our community. But there exists that little negative voice inside us, for better or worse, that looks to keep out strangers; those that don't look or sound, or believe as "we" do. In my experience, I have been told to steer clear of certain areas in my town that may not want certain people to walk around their neighborhood. They make you feel unwanted, downright rejected.

A perfect example: that scene in Pretty Woman when she walks into a chic LA Boutique and they shun her. "You can't afford that dress." The mentality is we
want only "our kind" here in this store. Where do you go in a case like that?
Back to where you are comfortable: your neighborhood, family or community.

So, in the general sense, you're right when you say:

Quote:
The idea that they tend to stay there now I think speaks to our natural tenancy to group ourselves with like-minded people and also things that are familiar to us.

We have our own little community here, the Firefly Community; where we fight, argue and generally piss each other off. But, on those rare occasions, we come together and miracle of miracles, we agree. I, for one, am going to embrace this moment.

SGG

Quote:
Originally posted by 6stringJoker:
Quote:
Originally posted by SHINYGOODGUY:
This is what I'm saying. To think that in 2017 we are still talking about "reservations" like we are still living in the past. Horse soldiers and the like. Wow, it blows my mind.

SGG

Quote:
Originally posted by Brenda:
Quote:
Originally posted by 6stringJoker:
I'm pretty sure at this point they wouldn't exist if the people who lived in them didn't want to live in them anymore. It's not as if they're concentration camps. They're actually sovereign states of their own that can make laws outside of US law. That's why the casinos were only on reservations for many years, and that's where the UFC got its start and to this day there are quite a few cage fights that don't fall under UFC law.

Brenda can correct me if I'm wrong, but nobody has to stay there if they don't want to.

No, Jack. People don't have to stay on them any more. But sometimes leaving and trying to "assimilate" into the larger society is still hard. And God do I hate that word. So when they have problems they go back to the reservation.

Sometimes I feel that we still aren't wanted in our own land.

I can agree with that SGG. But not being part of the culture it's hard to say why that word would still be a thing.

Brenda says that they don't have to stay on them "anymore", which means that they were indeed forced to stay on them at some point, which is the real shame.

The idea that they tend to stay there now I think speaks to our natural tenancy to group ourselves with like-minded people and also things that are familiar to us. I'm not saying that they have it good, but I am saying that part of me envies what they do have now. I'm a european mutt. I don't have any "roots" or any "reservation" to go back to if I fail to assimilate with the culture, which I struggle with all the time.

I think it's a large reason why buying a home and having no debt was so important to me. I've got my lonely little castle now where I'm not beholden to anybody. What's missing is the sense of community and belonging that Brenda probably feels.

1KIKI

Monday, May 1, 2017 1:02 PM

So the question is - how to retain the link of tradition, tribe and family; while preparing the young to be successful in the greater world. It seems like a daunting task - like walking on two roads.

Originally posted by G:
"I coined the slogan "We Suck!"© many years ago."
G is an avowed Putin-loving, pro-Russian, anti-American troll.

SIGNYM

Monday, May 1, 2017 7:44 PM

Maybe if the reservations became more like a refuge and less like a prison?

I don't know how well that would work, but even white Xtian culture could use more "retreats" to restore balance. I myself long for a nice couple of weeks in quiet cloister/ hermitage/ monastery where all I need to do is be quiet and think.

-----------

"Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor"- William Blake
THUGR, JONESING FOR WWIII
All those guns 1kiki, are pointed towards your beloved Russia. All those cyber capabilities, pointed right at Russia. Thanks Putin, and get ready to duck.

1KIKI

Tuesday, May 2, 2017 1:43 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Maybe if the reservations became more like a refuge and less like a prison?

I don't know how well that would work, but even white Xtian culture could use more "retreats" to restore balance. I myself long for a nice couple of weeks in quiet cloister/ hermitage/ monastery where all I need to do is be quiet and think.

I was thinking about an entire way of life. From what little I know - mostly from the Navajo - (damn! maybe I should have taken the hospital job at Ganado, but they wanted a 5 year commitment, and when you're in your 20's 5 years is forever) - the life is family/ tribal based on herding/ gathering/ simple farming, with crafts for sale. The many physical requirements for that lifestyle, the particular knowledge needed, require a large commitment of time. It's vital to preserve the language. I just don't know how you can preserve the entire culture, from which the cultural ethic springs.

Originally posted by G:
"I coined the slogan "We Suck!"© many years ago."
G is an avowed Putin-loving, pro-Russian, anti-American troll.

SIGNYM

Tuesday, May 2, 2017 3:44 AM

There are two views of society. The first is that society is more-or-less determined by its economics. A people living one way of live ... herding, farming, gathering/hunting, industrialization etc. ... will see themselves and each other one particular way.

The second view is that society - especially how people view and treat each other - is more-or-less self-defined, independent of its economy.

If the first is correct, it will be impossible to maintain a society without the resources (land, rivers etc) which support it. If the second view is correct, then maintaining a language, religion, and system of ethics will go a long way towards keeping a culture alive and vibrant. I'm not sure which is correct, but I hope it's the second.

-----------

"Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor"- William Blake
THUGR, JONESING FOR WWIII
All those guns 1kiki, are pointed towards your beloved Russia. All those cyber capabilities, pointed right at Russia. Thanks Putin, and get ready to duck.

1KIKI

Tuesday, May 2, 2017 4:24 AM

I'd forgotten about that. indications so far are that physical environment doesn't determine economic relationships - how many in a group, resource distribution etc.

But how many phrases do we use today without thinking that don't have a vibrant real-life meaning - counting your chickens before they hatch; putting the cart before the horse, for example. The language is more or less intact, but the culture beyond the physical would be unrecognizable to a peasant from Merrie Olde England. Family, community, religion ... expectations, right and wrong ...

Originally posted by G:
"I coined the slogan "We Suck!"© many years ago."
G is an avowed Putin-loving, pro-Russian, anti-American troll.

1KIKI

Wednesday, May 3, 2017 10:40 AM

I appreciate the reply Brenda. To me, that's valuable information.

Originally posted by G:
"I coined the slogan "We Suck!"© many years ago."
G is an avowed Putin-loving, pro-Russian, anti-American troll.

SHINYGOODGUY

Wednesday, May 3, 2017 11:33 AM

Agreed, 1000%

SGG

Quote:
Originally posted by Brenda:
Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
So the question is - how to retain the link of tradition, tribe and family; while preparing the young to be successful in the greater world. It seems like a daunting task - like walking on two roads.

Originally posted by G:
"I coined the slogan "We Suck!"© many years ago."
G is an avowed Putin-loving, pro-Russian, anti-American troll.

The Navajo have their own schools where they teach their language as well as English.

I think that is a good start.

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