capitalism, by definition, is a stupid and foolish human system
POSTED BY: 1kiki
UPDATED: Monday, January 13, 2025 18:50
VIEWED: 28147
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Chris,isall
You aren't a capitalist. I understand you have your definition, and in your definition, you might consider yourself one. But you don't own the mean of production or hire out the work. So by my definition, sorry, you don't count as one.
SAGAN: We are releasing vast quantities of carbon dioxide, increasing the greenhouse effect. It may not take much to destabilize the Earth's climate, to convert this heaven, our only home in the cosmos, into a kind of hell.
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TH
Please tell me what YOU consider 'ethical investing' - what are it's results that you consider 'ethical'. Just because someone calls themselves by that name, doesn't make it necessarily true.
SAGAN: We are releasing vast quantities of carbon dioxide, increasing the greenhouse effect. It may not take much to destabilize the Earth's climate, to convert this heaven, our only home in the cosmos, into a kind of hell.
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Quote:But I DO own the means of production, and I, uh... hire out the work to... myself!
Originally posted by 1kiki:
But you don't own the mean of production or hire out the work.
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AHA! Cutting yourself in on the deal from both ends! VERRRYyyy tricksy.
SAGAN: We are releasing vast quantities of carbon dioxide, increasing the greenhouse effect. It may not take much to destabilize the Earth's climate, to convert this heaven, our only home in the cosmos, into a kind of hell.
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Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
TH
Please tell me what YOU consider 'ethical investing' - what are it's results that you consider 'ethical'. Just because someone calls themselves by that name, doesn't make it necessarily true.
Socially responsible investing (SRI), also known as sustainable, socially conscious, "green" or ethical investing, is any investment strategy which seeks to consider both financial return and social good.
How is it you can complain so much about the behavior of others and not answer this question yourself?
si shen
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To get return on investment - assuming you're making more than your original investment back plus interest for the loss of use of your money - means that you're getting more than you're helping - you are still the winner in a zero-sum system and they are the losers. So - it may be considerate of certain specific goals - the environment for example - but it doesn't affect the end result of a world divided into owners and workers, wealthy and poor. Is that ethical?
;Llllll <- kittie typing on the keyboard
SAGAN: We are releasing vast quantities of carbon dioxide, increasing the greenhouse effect. It may not take much to destabilize the Earth's climate, to convert this heaven, our only home in the cosmos, into a kind of hell.
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Quote:
1kiki
To get return on investment - assuming you're making more than your original investment back plus interest for the loss of use of your money - means that you're getting more than you're helping - you are still the winner in a zero-sum system and they are the losers.
What you are describing is exactly what a bank does when it loans someone the money to buy a home. When the loan is paid off the bank made a profit and the homeowner owns a home worth considerably more than the purchase price. This hopefully makes up for the interest paid on the loan. Both made out.
Not to mention the people who built the home. The people who are hired to maintain the home. I,E, new roof or plumbers, maybe landscapers, you get the point.
si shen
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G
I think you're unaware of HOW MUCH of the $$ floating around is based on debt. The answer is... there is approximately 32 TIMES the amount of debt as there is of actual wealth. 97% of all of the world's money is based on debt.
Yanno, it's one thing to have a 10% debt. THAT, you have a prayer of growing the economy enough to pay it back with honest money. But having to multiply economies by 32X in order to pay off the debt with real money??? Not gonna happen!
There are all kinds of reasons how this happened, a number of possible consequences - particularly debt collapse or hyperinflation, and several preventive measures (none of which will happen). But I'm really too busy to go into it now, plus I haven't read the thread. But I think the west is in a "post-capitalist" economy, no longer based on production and consumption which serves the vast majority of the population, but into a mostly speculative economy based on "financialism"... ie making money on money.
If you think that doesn't make sense and can't last, you're probably right.
Wow, this sure is a long thread. I'm going to have to read it, I guess!
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Scrolling thru the thread, I came across this Geezer gem
Quote:I call this tactic "flinging poo while running away". Geezer, I see, failed to answer his own question and then ran away.
Just wanted to confirm that you are going to stereotype anyone who runs a business in which they have invested their capital - be it money, time, skills, etc. - as interested in only profit to the exclusion of everything else. You didn't disappoint.
The problem with capitalism is that it's a form of rentier economy... where people collect money just because they own something. Sometimes, people own apartments or houses. Sometimes they own farmland. Sometimes they own the means of production; "profit" is the "rent" that a worker pays in order to use the tools to make stuff for the owner.(Hmmm... when I put it that way, it really IS screwed up, isn't it?)
In it's most abstract form, if you're a bank you "own" money. Even better- not only do you "own" the deposits (BTW, those of you who have money in a bank account, you should be aware that it is not YOUR money. You're considered an unsecured lender, and if the bank runs into serious financial difficulties your account is forfeit, according to the "bail-in" provisions that the FDIC and the Bank of England signed back in 2012 http://www.bankofengland.co.uk/publications/Documents/news/2012/nr156.
pdf) you can get to MAKE MONEY OUT OF NOTHING! Imagine! You "own" something that you can conjure more of out of thin air, with virtually no restrictions!
This is clearly no longer capitalism, but something far beyond.
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"it may mathematically be a zero sum game technically on paper"
That's like saying entropy is just an idea. But if that's how the universe runs, and will eventually run down - that's how it runs and will eventually die.
As for the small business vs the large corporation, the only difference is scale. Theoretically they run by the same model. If you are underpaying someone for the value of their work in order to make a profit, it doesn't matter if it's just a few people just a little bit - in which case the eventual end will take longer to show up - or a lot of people being royally screwed - in which case it will take hardly any time at all.
SAGAN: We are releasing vast quantities of carbon dioxide, increasing the greenhouse effect. It may not take much to destabilize the Earth's climate, to convert this heaven, our only home in the cosmos, into a kind of hell.
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