So, Geezer, rappy, in your ideal world, what should happen?

POSTED BY: 1kiki
UPDATED: Wednesday, March 26, 2025 17:09
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SIGNYM

Sunday, April 20, 2014 9:53 AM

Curiously, I find this conversation with Geezer to be productive. We're talking about things we haven't talked about before.

GEEZER

Sunday, April 20, 2014 8:41 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Oh, but now there are OTHER rights? BESIDES the right to own property and enter into contracts? Rights which, in fact, supersede those propertarian rights which you've described more than once? Well, why don't you explain what THOSE rights are, then?

They all derive from the right to be secure in yourself and your property. Don't see them as superseding propertarian rights at all.

Don't you consider your personal information to be your property? If you have the right to be secure in yourself and your property, don't you have the right to sue, or take other legal action, if someone tries to capture your personal information without your consent? And if most everyone understands that, will there really be that many people trying to do so?

"When your heart breaks, you choose what to fill the cracks with. Love or hate. But hate won't ever heal. Only love can do that."

GEEZER

Sunday, April 20, 2014 8:45 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Curiously, I find this conversation with Geezer to be productive. We're talking about things we haven't talked about before.

And I agree.

When we can get to actually discussing our opinions, between all the snippiness, it requires me to have to think about, and develop, my position. I suspect that this applies to both of us.

"When your heart breaks, you choose what to fill the cracks with. Love or hate. But hate won't ever heal. Only love can do that."

1KIKI

Sunday, April 20, 2014 9:28 PM

"They all derive from the right to be secure in yourself and your property."

I think that 'secure in your property' derives from 'secure in yourself' and is redundant, insofar as property is a product of your work, acquired through an exchange of your work for the work of others, and/or is a means of survival. But 'property' is more discrete and tangible than 'self' (unless you're only talking about the physical body), and so easier to define and enforce. The 'secure in self' you posit is a very vaporous concept. Perhaps you could define it further.

SIGNYM

Sunday, April 20, 2014 9:31 PM

Okay, so there are more things under the definition of "property" that I originally thought. Perhaps it's all best wrapped up in "Secure in person and property".

Security, however, has many aspects to it. People living on the edge of starvation are thought of as "food insecure". So security, to some extent, means reliably being given the necessary items for life (clean air, clean water, nutritious food, shelter, safety from physical harm) or reliably being able to obtain them through work. As far as I can tell, that is the most important aspect of security.

Then there are other, more intangible aspects of security: privacy, freedom from coercion, freedom to communicate etc. And of course the less necessary things that you might still want to hang onto- personal items, and so forth.

Let me know if this expansion describes the lines you're thinking along. I won't be able to get back to this for a week or so, sorry leave this dangling, real life calls.

GEEZER

Monday, April 21, 2014 7:50 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Then there are other, more intangible aspects of security: privacy, freedom from coercion, freedom to communicate etc. And of course the less necessary things that you might still want to hang onto- personal items, and so forth.

Pretty much what I've been saying. You have the right (and in my desired libertarian society, everyone understands and respects that you have the right) to yourself and your property and everything that derives from that - security of self and property (considering privacy, right to voluntarily associate or withhold association, etc., as part of self and property) - with the understanding that you can enjoy these rights without threat or coercion as long as that enjoyment doesn't threaten anyone else's similar rights.

Quote:
Let me know if this expansion describes the lines you're thinking along. I won't be able to get back to this for a week or so, sorry leave this dangling, real life calls.

I got stuff (there's that word again) to do the week as well. I'll check back time to time.

BTW, still waiting for a response as to how to deal with the Meals-on-Wheels czar and his executives' plans for the one-meal-fits-all effectiveness plan.

"When your heart breaks, you choose what to fill the cracks with. Love or hate. But hate won't ever heal. Only love can do that."

GEEZER

Monday, April 21, 2014 7:58 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
"They all derive from the right to be secure in yourself and your property."

I think that 'secure in your property' derives from 'secure in yourself' and is redundant, insofar as property is a product of your work, acquired through an exchange of your work for the work of others, and/or is a means of survival. But 'property' is more discrete and tangible than 'self' (unless you're only talking about the physical body), and so easier to define and enforce. The 'secure in self' you posit is a very vaporous concept. Perhaps you could define it further.

Well, I've seen libertarians posit that your self (physical body, mind, etc.,) is also your property. You own yourself just like you own your car or TV. The same right to possess and enjoy your property applies to your body, mind, etc.

"When your heart breaks, you choose what to fill the cracks with. Love or hate. But hate won't ever heal. Only love can do that."

SIGNYM

Monday, April 21, 2014 9:55 PM

Quote:
BTW, still waiting for a response as to how to deal with the Meals-on-Wheels czar and his executives' plans for the one-meal-fits-all effectiveness plan.

Dealth with it extensily on p2 beginning

Quote:
Oh, AFA a government system not working...

We do analyses. We follow procedures, we check back to see if they're "working" on the micro scale: Did the instrument run consistently from beginning to end? Are the analyses repeatable and fully documented?

and also

"If it can be provided commercially, a goverment can do it"

But I see you want more details.

That's easy, it can be described by many Federal programs. for example the air pollution program that we all work under the Clean Air Act.

The Federal government sets the goals ... air quality must be this good, or better... and then allows the states, counties, or (in some cases) multi-county regions both the responsibility and authority to to make it happen. That's because each geographic region has its own weather and set of polluters, so each region's plan has to be unque to its circumstances.

That's one idea, but there are others.

JONGSSTRAW

Monday, April 21, 2014 10:10 PM

1. Deliver the mail.

2. Defend America against the commies and the ragheads.

That's all the Federal Govt. needs to do.

1KIKI

Tuesday, April 22, 2014 1:06 AM

Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
1. Deliver the mail.
2. Defend America against the commies and the ragheads.
That's all the Federal Govt. needs to do.

We the people of the United States, in order to
1) form a more perfect union,
2) establish justice,
3) insure domestic tranquility,
4) provide for the common defense,
5) promote the general welfare, and
6) secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

Section 8.

7) The Congress shall have power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

8) To borrow Money on the credit of the United States;

9) To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes;

10) To establish a uniform Rule of Naturalization, and uniform Laws on the subject of Bankruptcies throughout the United States;

11) To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures;

12) To provide for the Punishment of counterfeiting the Securities and current coin of the United States;

13) To establish Post Offices and post Roads;

14) To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries;

15) To constitute Tribunals inferior to the supreme Court;

16) To define and punish Piracies and Felonies committed on the high Seas, and Offenses against the Law of Nations;

4) To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water;
4) To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years;
4) To provide and maintain a Navy;
4) To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces;
4) To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;
4) To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;

17) To exercise exclusive Legislation in all Cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten Miles square) as may, by Cession of particular States, and the Acceptance of Congress, become the Seat of the Government of the United States, and to exercise like Authority over all Places purchased by the Consent of the Legislature of the State in which the Same shall be, for the Erection of Forts, Magazines, Arsenals, dock-Yards, and other needful Buildings;—And

18) To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof.

Two outa' 18 ain't bad. But if I included the powers of the president and the supreme court, well, that 18 would be higher.

To argue with a man who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead. - Thomas Paine The American Crisis

OONJERAH - We are too dumb to live and smart enough to wipe ourselves out.

"You, who live in any kind of comfort or convenience, do not know how these people can survive these things, do you? They will endure because there is no immediate escape from endurance. Some will die, the rest must live."

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