What would you keep, what would you change?
POSTED BY: Niki2
UPDATED: Thursday, October 9, 2025 20:12
VIEWED: 3625
PAGE 3 of 4
Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Signy for Prez.
I think I've said that before....
Commie bastahd.
` Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen
I'm just a red pill guy in a room full of blue pill addicts.
" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall
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BYTE
Quote:Illegal laborers are low-wage laborers. Saying that illegals have contributed (or are contributing) to our society is like saying that low-wage Chinese labor is contributing to our society. The only people who really win in that scenario are business owners.
That could potentially murder kids, if it involves deporting them back into a clusterfuck. And what about the contributions of children of hard scrabble immigrants to society?
Quote:A friend of mine once said There are no nations, only language groups. The longer I've thought about it, the more correct it seems. What makes "Poland" a self-identity? It's borders have been here, there, elsewhere, and nowhere. At times, it occupied parts of the Ukraine and Lithuania, at times it was wiped entirely from the map. The reason why that identity was preserved was because the language persisted. The Brits knew this: they attempted to wipe out the language of the Irish, the Scots, and the Welsh; and where they couldn't wipe out the native languages they made English the official language. My point is, you can't have a national identity unless you have a common language.
And why is english speaking so important? That's would ruin cultural enclaves in America that spice up our country and force everyone to be assimilated. There's a reason the Borg were bad guys.
We can discuss whether maintaining the concept of "nations" is even reasonable, but if you're going have a nation, then you need a common language- one that everyone is expected to know fluently.
Quote:There's something in my proposals for everyone to hate!
I agreed with pretty much everything you said up to that, since razing the existing economic power structures to the ground and going back to the very basics seems the only way to fix the current problems. But then it went somewhere strange.
Quote:Money is a big problem, but I haven't figured out a replacement. As soon as I figure out what to replace it with (either back to barter, or allow the development of regional/ local currencies) the only thing I can do is attempt to manage its distribution.
And also, I didn't really want to get into this much, but... What about targeting the inherent concepts that cause the flaws and discrepancies in society? Like money itself.
Quote:Science is a whore. Or, I should say technology is a whore.
Or what about SCIENCE as solutions to some problems? Like mortality?
Besides, our existential problems- the problems that threaten our very existence as a species - aren't technological. Our biggest problem is OURSELVES. We're the ones who've caused the very disasters that we're facing, and until we take a long, hard scientific view of ourselves, and understand why we create such self-destructive clusterfucks and how we can prevent that in the future, we will continue to be a threat to ourselves.
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Quote:
Illegal laborers are low-wage laborers. Saying that illegals have contributed (or are contributing) to our society is like saying that low-wage Chinese labor is contributing to our society. The only people who really win in that scenario are business owners.
But what about LIVING in our society? They left their old society behind for a reason. Some of them did have to do things we would frown upon (like smuggling) just to get here because they were poor. It seems inhumane to just toss people for that.
Only the business owners win because they're free to exploit the laborers. Your solution is don't let the business owners exploit them by KICKING THEM OUT OF THE COUNTRY?
Hey yeah, what other things can we punish victims for because they have a less-than-legal status? I know, let's deport all the prostitutes even if they've been passed around by the trafficking rings or if they're children.
Quote:
but if you're going have a nation, then you need a common language- one that everyone is expected to know fluently.
Hell with nations. Nations is how you get pride and NATIONALISM. Know what Nationalism causes?
Intolerance and war.
Quote:
We're the ones who've caused the very disasters that we're facing, and until we take a long, hard scientific view of ourselves, and understand why we create such self-destructive clusterfucks and how we can prevent that in the future, we will continue to be a threat to ourselves.
Hmm.
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Byte, I'm right there beside you on these two issues. In the greater scheme of things, illegal immigrants and "English as a national language" are, in my opinion, waaaay down the list of what's wrong with America.
That comes from someone who feels her hackles rise when in a department store and the clerk starts jabbering away with another employee in Spanish--it bothers me, I know it, but I don't accept that my being bothered is "right". The vast majority of Americans (especially traveling Americans!) frigging refuse to learn any language BUT English, the world has been taken over BY English, and I'm offended that we should try to insist that everyone speak it...which is merely personal opinion and because I feel cultures should be maintained. That too many immigrants don't learn English is a problem, but I don't agree with penalizing immigrants when we have so many other, far more serious in my opinion, problems. Ditto the immigrant problem, which you covered perfectly.
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I was amazed in Europe how people switched from one language to another effortlessly. Only the French resist it, and they really do have a bug up their collective asses about language.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Magonsdaughter:
I was amazed in Europe how people switched from one language to another effortlessly. Only the French resist it, and they really do have a bug up their collective asses about language.
Everyone else in the world teaches English as a second language.
Here, we give bonuses if you speak Spanish too.
I'm sure even German has an "I get a tax break if I cater to white-hating Muslim Extremists" clause. Why else would they be twice as invaded as we are by towel-heads?
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Guys, I didn't say make other language illegal, I said make English the official language- EVERYONE has to learn it. If you know another language, good on you!
My dad cam from Poland. My grandparents on my mother's side came form Poland. My hubby (and of course his entire family) came from Hungary. The first thing they did was LEARN THE LANGUAGE. And if I moved to another nation, I would assume that I had to learn the language too.
Now, why do I insist on having immigrants learn the official language? Because if you cant' speak the language, you will be isolated form healthcare, from training, from police services, from politics, and from the million-and-one things that you personally don't encounter as a problem because you speak the language.
We've hired household help to watch our daughter when she was having a lot of seizures, and one of the things we insisted on was the ABILITY TO SPEAK ENGLISH. How could we communicate with her caregiver such complex topics as "what a seizure looks like", how could her caregiver communicate with EMS unless she had fluent command of the English language?
Watched as an A/C contractor could only give his very illegal work crew the most primitive of instructions. Same with painters. No training possible. Only the most slapdash work results.
And for all of the language here in the USA, you can't POSSIBLY have interpreters for every possible language! Seriously, guys, put on your thinking caps!
Quote:As long as legal control is maintained within national boundaries (ie no one-world government!) the only solutions that can be applied effectively are within borders.
But what about LIVING in our society? They left their old society behind for a reason. Some of them did have to do things we would frown upon (like smuggling) just to get here because they were poor. It seems inhumane to just toss people for that.
Only the business owners win because they're free to exploit the laborers. Your solution is don't let the business owners exploit them by KICKING THEM OUT OF THE COUNTRY?
Hey yeah, what other things can we punish victims for because they have a less-than-legal status? I know, let's deport all the prostitutes even if they've been passed around by the trafficking rings or if they're children.
And, I propose, a nation can't effectively solve its own problems unless it controls its borders. I did a thought-experiment a number of years ago which convinced me of this.
The idea was... assuming that the USA is a nation with ONLY the welfare its citizens at stake.... health care, jobs, the environment are all being addressed.... even if immigration is allowed, there are only so many people an economy can integrate every year. Only so many people can be taught the language, only so many people can find housing AND WATER, only so many people can be screened and treated for communicable diseases, and so forth. Unless an economy is willing to turn over a larger-than-sustainable percentage of its economy over to integrating newcomers, a nation simply can't integrate an endless influx. We're no longer a frontier economy, needing immigrants to fill up the land (that we stole from the Indians. Heck, look at what "the immigrants" did to THEIR economy!). IF we are going to control our economy. No, ESPECIALLY IF we intend to control our economy, our health care, our environmental sustainability, our culture, and all that good stuff, we MUST control our immigration rate. Just as the Costa Ricans... they're having a hard time with Nicaraguans sneaking across their border for free health care!
Now, the argument has been made that the USA created a lot of clusterfucks elsewhere. Interfered with the political and economic development of many nations, in service to our transnational corporations. They argue that the USA has a moral duty to take in immigrants to make up for the damage it has caused elsewhere.
I agree to some extent. As I see it, the USA has a moral
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I liked the US keep out of other people's business part, but then I think I just saw you approve of outsourcing manufacturing jobs to exploitative sweatshops.
And you also said that somehow international problems like immigration would be solved with a one world government.
I would have to seriously disagree on those points.
As for the language issue, I think the main problem is that we don't provide people enough opportunity in their immigrant enclaves. If most exchange and manufacture of goods and services were local, immigrants could provide for each other and their culture would thrive without having to interact outside of that world. Then they could learn whatever language they wanted to if they so choose to, instead of being forced to learn a language by economic pressures and the cultural oppression of the majority.
Quote:
Right now the only thing standing between you and sheer, naked, global fascism is nationalism.
No it's not. Nationalism is rapidly ACCELERATING the world in the direction of global fascism. The US is desperately trying to take over a lot of nations via economics and puppet governments in a bid to maintain superpower status. I'll grant you that China is trying to resist that for nationalist reasons, but if the US failed for whatever reason, you really think China wouldn't then try to take over the world themselves?
Not that they COULD, or that America could either, but nationalism is an inherent PART of that progression, not the counter to it. The counter to it is innate human resistance to being told what to do by strangers or authority figures or both.
Or maybe the Nazis weren't nationalistic fascists and didn't actually want to rule the world either.
Quote:
You see any exit signs?
...Yes?
I don't disagree with the whole live like we have to live here thing, but I always get a little skitchy when people seem to be suggesting that we shouldn't EVER leave. That way lies extinction whether we sort out our problems or not.
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Quote:Me too! I guess I must not be communicating clearly.
but then I think I just saw you approve of outsourcing manufacturing jobs to exploitative sweatshops.
And you also said that somehow international problems like immigration would be solved with a one world government.
I would have to seriously disagree on those points.
Quote:Why would we want to promote immigrant enclaves? I've seen immigrant enclaves here in LA County. They're like something in Juarez: cardboard and tin shacks with no sewage, no water, no electricity. Those problems can't be solved at the immigrant enclave level.
As for the language issue, I think the main problem is that we don't provide people enough opportunity in their immigrant enclaves. If most exchange and manufacture of goods and services were local, immigrants could provide for each other and their culture would thrive without having to interact outside of that world. Then they could learn whatever language they wanted to if they so choose to, instead of being forced to learn a language by economic pressures and the cultural oppression of the majority.
Yanno, I like the idea of devolving problems to the lowest level at which they can be solved, but there are some problems that can't be solved at low levels.
The other thing- there used to be computer games at U of Toronto exploring the relative successes of cooperation versus competition (part of game theory). When they got to pitting collective cooperation versus collective competition, they found that cooperation wins... but only if the collective is large enough. "Cooperative individuals" is something of an oxymoron. If you're going to create a new society, you have to be big enough to withstand the global force of corporatism. I think that means a national-scale effort.
Quote:And yet, other nations continue to plow ahead with their own economic and social experiments. This may be about as successful as a feudalist arguing capitalism, but nations are inevitably smaller than global corporatism. It it possible to turn nations around. It isn't possible to turn global corporatism around.
No it's not. Nationalism is rapidly ACCELERATING the world in the direction of global fascism. The US is desperately trying to take over a lot of nations via economics and puppet governments in a bid to maintain superpower status. I'll grant you that China is trying to resist that for nationalist reasons, but if the US failed for whatever reason, you really think China wouldn't then try to take over the world themselves?
Quote:I have seen next-to-nothing of this.
The counter to it is innate human resistance to being told what to do by strangers or authority figures or both.
Quote:At some point- yes- we really have to get off this rock as a form of ultimate self-preservation. But my point was that until we learn to solve ourselves, we'll take our self-destruction with us wherever we go.
I don't disagree with the whole live like we have to live here thing, but I always get a little skitchy when people seem to be suggesting that we shouldn't EVER leave. That way lies extinction whether we sort out our problems or not.
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Quote Signym: "At some point- yes- we really have to get off
this rock as a form of ultimate self-preservation. But my point
was that until we learn to solve ourselves, we'll take our self-
destruction with us wherever we go."
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I may be ignorant of politics, militarism, economics and so on ...
But the above is totally self-evident. Applies to the personal
level, too.
====================== :>
A man's gotta know his Delusions. ~Oonjerah
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