Reynolds vs. Cobb?

POSTED BY: manwithpez
UPDATED: Thursday, June 3, 2004 22:25
VIEWED: 3802
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ARAWAEN

Wednesday, June 2, 2004 4:29 PM

Mal intentionally got the drop on Jayne in Ariel though. I think the common consensus is that Jayne cannot be trusted 100% and not to give him an opening, at least Mal and Zoe hold this opinion (and most likely Wash).

Jayne is probably the toughest physically, but Mal and Zoe recoup this edge by using their intelligence and discipline. If deprived of these advantages Jayne could probably take either one.

Arawaen

Um, I'm lost. Uh, I'm Angry. And I'm Armed.

ANTHONYT

Wednesday, June 2, 2004 6:23 PM

So, if Mal took stupid pills and had a discipline removal operation, Jayne could beat him.

In any event, Mal seems to be just as adept at gunplay as Jayne is. Got a head shot on a Marshall holding a hostage without breaking his stride.

Big, strong, and mean don't matter none to twenty grains of lead. Mal is plenty formidable.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

CHANNAIN

Wednesday, June 2, 2004 7:00 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by manwithpez:
Jayne could probably whip the crap out of Mal, but never does, though he looks like he'd like to half the time.

Could he do it? Maybe, if he got the drop on Mal, and even then I'd consider it iffy. What Mal doesn't have in brute strength he makes up for in sneakiness. Watch him take out the cops in Trash - the man fights dirty and isn't the least bit ashamed of it.

Yeah, maybe half the time Jayne would like to pound on Mal - I get the feeling he'd do that to anybody who irritated him. But after Ariel, I doubt he'd try his luck at it. He's seen the crazy side of Mal just a little too up close and personal.

Let me rephrase; I doubt he'd try it without backup. And I don't mean just a real big gun either.

In one of the episodes, Jayne says that Mal must have some kind of a plan for the Tams when he takes them on board. That would indicate he has some manner of respect for Mal. Could be that Jayne's already picked up on that strength Inara talked about at the conclusion of Heart of Gold.

Jayne seems to like where he is. I don't know that even if he had gotten the payoff in Ariel that he would have left the ship. It might have just meant having more spending money along the way.

We have art so as not to die of truth ~ Neitzsche
http://www.mnartists.org/artistHome.do?rid=7922

MANWITHPEZ

Wednesday, June 2, 2004 11:19 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Jayne is loyal to Mal for four reasons:

1) It is more profitable to be 'with' Mal than it is to be against Mal.

2) He does not have to worry about the rest of the crew betraying him or stealing from him (something to be concerned about in the company of pirates and cutthroats.)

3) Size and strength mean nothing to a bullet. Mal is quite capable of ending Mr. Cobb. He has also demonstrated a superior intellect. Mal even clobbered Jayne physically once. Bullies respect that sort of thing. A wrench to the face makes a lasting impression.

4) Jayne is gradually coming to like and respect the people he works with on Serenity.

--Anthony

"Liberty must not be purchased at the cost of Humanity." --Captain Robert Henner

1. That is a good point. But, I get the feeling that the Alliance is probably offering more for River than Jayne or the rest of the crew of Serenity is used to seeing. I kinda got the impression that any problems between Mal and Jayne were going to be more involved before Fox changed the direction of the show. He argues with Mal about the take with Badger. Then there's the dinner table conversation. I think these two were headed for more problems before Fox asked Joss to lighten up the show.

2. Its obvious that he is worried about what the crew will do to him if they found out what he has done. He get's nervous whenever its brought up, like in the cockpit with Mal during Objects in Space and River says he's afraid that Simon and she will find out that he betrayed them. He gets very, very nervous in Trash when he's on Simon's table. But, of all, I think he's the most afraid of River. Plus, Jayne has no problem going through someone's stuff and was almost gleeful when, in Safe, the Tams went missing. Granted, its a moot point because he rushed to put it all back. The crew might trust him, but he doesnt trust them at all.

3. The wrench to the face had not occured when Serenity happened, plus, I think you're right, bullies do respect a low blow from time to time. But, the low blow only proves my point, I think. I don't think Mal could have fought Jayne and won. Jayne has proven that's he more than a little adept with weapons. If it were not so, why would Mal ask Jayne to shoot out the magetic net point in Our Mrs. Reynolds instead of doing it himself. Of course Mal is smarter, which is why, I think after viewing Jayne fight his old partner in Jaynestown, he probably choose the low blow instead of a straigh fight. Jayne was all muscle and no brains in that fight. Which is not to challenge Mal's staying power. He'd put more than a minor whooping on Niska's boys at various times.

4. Jayne, to me, may be the only static character in Firefly, which is one of the tragedies of its cancellation. We didn't really get to see any character definition or growth with him. Most people point to Jaynestown, more even so to Ariel. In Jaynestown, he can't understand the Mudders, and when he does start to grasp it, Mal turns him away from it (By calling him a jackass, if I remember right), and in Ariel, it appeared to me to be more a point of pride with him than any actual apology. He wasn't sorry that he turned the Tams in, but he didn't want the rest of the crew to know what he had done. That there may be the most compelling evidence that he's beginning to soften and like the crew a bit.

Man, I rambled on far too long here. God! I love this site. I'm sorry about that. Mal is damn near my favorite character in the show, but I think Jayne could take him, if he got over whatever stigma he has attached to the captain by way of rank or command, and, maybe as a father figure.

Later.

"You would've lied anyway..."
Mal

SPLIBERTARIAN

Thursday, June 3, 2004 5:47 PM

I think Jayne has a great deal of respect for Mal. I think as Weerwolf mentioned, Jayne may have had an opportunity to at least catch glimpses of "The Real Mal". During the argument at the table over what to do with Dobson and the Tams in Serenity (it is hard to make out because everyone is talking at once), Jayne says something along the lines of "Captain's got a mean streak, you best not..." with a look on his face of both a sort of sadistic delight but also admiration. (Similar to the look Jayne has after Mal shoots Dobson and calls him over to dump the body.)

I think a lot of the conflicts between the two arise because Jayne doesn't 'get' Mal. He thinks of Mal as more like himself than he is. In The Train Job Jayne is sure that Mal has some more self serving purpose in keeping the Tams around. In Bushwhacked he's sure he has figured it out. This is what leads him into trouble in Ariel - Jayne honestly doesn't see turning the Tams in as a betrayal of Mal.

That's not to say that Jayne wouldn't betray Mal. After all, however much Jayne respects Mal, he still thinks pretty highly of himself. Like most people, he can see flaws in others, e.g. Mal as "pretentious", more easily than those in himself. It seems to take some pretty dramatic events, such as in Jaynestown and the end of Ariel, to spark Jayne's introspection.

It comes down to the fact that Mal is a leader. It's documented in his war record; it is demonstrated in every episode. He understands people in a way that Jayne does not, and he uses that understanding to both marshal the troops behind him, and to confront the enemy in front of him. Jayne follows Mal's leadership both because he respects Mal and because it serves Jayne best - something Mal understands and fosters. But I think Jayne is also learning that there can be more to life than that. Whether or not that perspective can prevail within him is another thing.

As far as a throw-down...Jayne is likely physically stronger and technically more skilled, but Mal would see Jayne coming from a mile away and is competent enough in his own right to take that advantage to victory.

At least, that's my view of things...

MANWITHPEZ

Thursday, June 3, 2004 10:25 PM

Very well thought out and communicated. I think that was the best one of these I've read so far. I had missed the fact that Jayne see faults in other people before himself. I mean, we all do that, he just takes it a step further.

Mal would see Jayne coming a mile off, just like he did in Ariel, when no one else, even the ingenious Simon Tam did. River don't count. They fiddled in her brains.

"You'd have only lied anyhow..."
Mal

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