Boycott ENTERPRISE .. it's just that bad.
POSTED BY: Ghoulman
UPDATED: Monday, January 24, 2005 20:10
VIEWED: 38245
PAGE 11 of 15
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Originally posted by Ghoulman:
Even more ... er, worse - this model of Fanboy pandering only encourages crap shows like SG-1 or Babylon 5 (which aren't horrific like ENT but are just as boring... if written competently, and that's not saying much). . . .
I want shows like Firefly!!!
How is Babylon 5 a bad show? I think that it's just as good as Firefly, albeit in a different way. The main characters in it have solid moral values, stand up against tyranny (no matter the cost!), and the show teaches that ideas, opinions, prejudices, and lies can have serious consequences. It is as meanful a message, in my humble opinion, as anything Firefly has given us.
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Here is my two cents worth.
I've always found it very hard to respect anyone who has a "This show sucks and no other opinion matters". Likewise, the "This show is wonderful and no other opinion matters" doesn't win points with me either.
I'm a woman of very marked opinions, but I can still manage that huge leap of logic to think "Gee. This person is not a clone of me. And - hey! That's alright."
(Though, then I have to get over being disappointed that I don't have a clone, but that's another thread).
I don't watch Enterprise. Why? I'll be honest -> She-Who-Defies-Gravity-with-Pointy-Ears offends my sensibilities about what Vulcans should be. Its okay if you love her to death. I just miss the old Spock mode of Vulcanism.
Now - am I a fan girl? I haven't collected anything, I have no desire to collect and while I find threads about Picard vs. Kirk interesting, I don't participate.
But you know what? I can like a series, like the ideals it held once upon a time, and not be this Dark-Geek-Fan that He-Whom-I-Will-Not-Name seems to think is beneath him.
I ain' beneath you, baby. You should be so lucky ;)
My point? I don't care what you think about a series, idea, or point so much. What matters is that you have thought it through and find it to hold up for you.
Don't get me wrong. I believe whole heartedly in ultimate truth and the concrete nature of reality. A dog is not a cat and a cat is not a machine gun. But truth is something much more powerful than any of us. Someone who is searching will find it.
So the responsibility is to search.
And, of course, don't hinder others searching by being elitest and combative.If the goal is discussion for enlightenment....You don't get that by pointing to a group of people and insulting their intelligence.
See - that's a lot like racism. :)
This is all, of course, my most humble and modest opinion.
(As for the spelling errors and such? I apologize for those it will inevitably grate upon. But I'm writing in notepad and trying to do a hundred things at once. I don't have time to run for my dictionary and, yes, I am a bad speller.)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ghoulman:
Lately, T'Pol has inexplicably decided that wearing a silly cat suit isn't enough to degrade herself so she has become a sort of ships whore by fucking the engineer... again for no apparent reason.
I've actually seen a fair amount of interesting debate about message vs. entertainment in this thread (in between the irritation many have felt over the tone and delivery).
But the claim that I qouted above really startled me. That one sentence sounded more misogynistic than any element I've ever seen in the show.
Here is my rationale... I think that all the alien characters in science fiction shows are intended to represent one or more human characteristics... when you imbue an alien character with a human trait, then you can explore that trait in a different light. Thus, I think that the Vulcans are just the embodiment of a few specific human traits.
If you agree with that, then what human trait is T'Pol displaying in her interest in Tucker? I'd say its all about isolation, loneliness, and the desire to connect. GM refers to her as a "whore" who is "fucking the engineer." It's an unnecessarily ugly way to characterize a woman who choses a lover. She has only just now done that for the first time in the show's run. Doesn't seem whorelike to me.
Very strange. Did it seem misogynistic to anyone else?
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Let me just hit the peaks and valleys as I see 'em.
Ghoulman, you are reading way WAY too much into the story lines. Frankly, I don't think there's any such depth to any of the stories, much less a concerted effort at misogyny, fascism, or any other isms.
I think the problem is, as I've read, that Bragga believes they've told every Star Trek story that can be told (pretty sure that's close to the quote). Hell, if you really believe that, stop telling them and get out of the way so someone else can. BTW, I consider Bragga's sentiment complete bushwah.
I just do not give a gorram about the characters on Enterprise, or their situation. Who cares if the Earth gets blowed up real good? Daniels will just come back and twist time around, no imagination required. No real drama generated.
For the fella who made the snide aside about, "I've seen better comic books...", well so have I. A lot. In fact, I would estimate there are more comics worth reading than television shows worth watching about now. Try Small Gods, Powers, Planetary, GCPD, or Deus Ex Machina. And dig into the stacks for From Hell, Jinx, and Moonshadow.
Well hell, there's even this new fella, Joss Whedon, writing this book about a team, well a family really. The X-Men I think they're called? Been a damn fine read so far, for a rookie. Been a damn fine read for anybody.
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Quote:
Originally posted by DeSangro:Quote:
Originally posted by Ghoulman:
Even more ... er, worse - this model of Fanboy pandering only encourages crap shows like SG-1 or Babylon 5 (which aren't horrific like ENT but are just as boring... if written competently, and that's not saying much). . . .
I want shows like Firefly!!!
How is Babylon 5 a bad show? I think that it's just as good as Firefly, albeit in a different way. The main characters in it have solid moral values, stand up against tyranny (no matter the cost!), and the show teaches that ideas, opinions, prejudices, and lies can have serious consequences. It is as meanful a message, in my humble opinion, as anything Firefly has given us.
My point isn't that is was a "bad" show. It was well written, though I thought the acting and production was crap. My only real complaint was that it was boring, with simplistic and predictable plots. Pretty much Star Trek style space opera all over again. Oh, don't start the whole B5 DS9 thing.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jest:
Here is my two cents worth.
I've always found it very hard to respect anyone who has a "This show sucks and no other opinion matters". Likewise, the "This show is wonderful and no other opinion matters" doesn't win points with me either.
So my long and well thought out essay didn't impress you as anything more than that. Gee. Thanks.
Quote:
I'm a woman of very marked opinions, but I can still manage that huge leap of logic to think "Gee. This person is not a clone of me. And - hey! That's alright."
Oprah Winfred called, she wants her baloney back. Prolly because she's hungry again.
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(Though, then I have to get over being disappointed that I don't have a clone, but that's another thread).
Natch
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I don't watch Enterprise. Why? I'll be honest -> She-Who-Defies-Gravity-with-Pointy-Ears offends my sensibilities about what Vulcans should be. Its okay if you love her to death. I just miss the old Spock mode of Vulcanism.
Yes, yet another riveting Trek issue! Oh please. You recognize crap on the show but... I'm doing bad. Uhhh...
Quote:
Now - am I a fan girl? I haven't collected anything, I have no desire to collect and while I find threads about Picard vs. Kirk interesting, I don't participate.
Well then, you ain't! You are not a "Fan-girl". A "Fanboy" as defined by artists who work in Sci-Fi and Fantasy is not what you think one is... and neither do any of those others who attacked me in earlier posts.
Seems I'm the only one who is even AWARE of the Fanboy culture and body politic. I'm trying to point out the corporate manipulation of those, mostly young and impressionable, masses who are preyed upon by mega-corp-studios in a George Lucas inspired privateering orgy. It's a whole thing... something I was really hoping someone out there who actually has been in Fandom might converse about... but you ain't. Are you.
Why?
Because you DON'T buy the fetish objects.
Quote:
But you know what? I can like a series, like the ideals it held once upon a time, and not be this Dark-Geek-Fan that He-Whom-I-Will-Not-Name seems to think is beneath him.
I ain' beneath you, baby. You should be so lucky ;)
Are you comming on to me?
Quote:
My point? I don't care what you think about a series, idea, or point so much. What matters is that you have thought it through and find it to hold up for you.
Don't get me wrong. I believe whole heartedly in ultimate truth and the concrete nature of reality. A dog is not a cat and a cat is not a machine gun. But truth is something much more powerful than any of us. Someone who is searching will find it.
So the responsibility is to search.
And, of course, don't hinder others searching by being elitest and combative.If the goal is discussion for enlightenment....You don't get that by pointing to a group of people and insulting their intelligence.
Yea... because smelly little fanboy shits deserve respect? Well, they don't - buying lots of crap doesn't impress me. Fanboys are a black spot on Sci-Fi and Fantasy, they hurt good work (like Firefly... something in my essay you missed?). If you're not even AWARE of the issues then don't get onto a high horse. You're making a fool of yourself by taking a stand on an issue you don't even know exists (but that I bring up in my essay! Arg!). You aren't alone of course, others on this BBS (note - when I've posted this on other sites it's popular and begins discussions that have nothing to do with attacking the Ghoulman) don't seem any more aware.
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See - that's a lot like racism. :)
WHAT!?!?! You're a fool. Shut up.
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This is all, of course, my most humble and modest opinion.
You got that right sister.
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(As for the spelling errors and such? I apologize for those it will inevitably grate upon. But I'm writing in notepad and trying to do a hundred things at once. I don't have time to run for my dictionary and, yes, I am a bad speller.)
OMG!
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Quote:
Originally posted by danfan:Quote:
Originally posted by Ghoulman:
Lately, T'Pol has inexplicably decided that wearing a silly cat suit isn't enough to degrade herself so she has become a sort of ships whore by fucking the engineer... again for no apparent reason.
I've actually seen a fair amount of interesting debate about message vs. entertainment in this thread (in between the irritation many have felt over the tone and delivery).
But the claim that I qouted above really startled me. That one sentence sounded more misogynistic than any element I've ever seen in the show.
Here is my rationale... I think that all the alien characters in science fiction shows are intended to represent one or more human characteristics... when you imbue an alien character with a human trait, then you can explore that trait in a different light. Thus, I think that the Vulcans are just the embodiment of a few specific human traits.
If you agree with that, then what human trait is T'Pol displaying in her interest in Tucker? I'd say its all about isolation, loneliness, and the desire to connect. GM refers to her as a "whore" who is "fucking the engineer." It's an unnecessarily ugly way to characterize a woman who choses a lover. She has only just now done that for the first time in the show's run. Doesn't seem whorelike to me.
Very strange. Did it seem misogynistic to anyone else?
Nice. Way to boomerang the blame. Sure, I'm the woman hater here because I say this character is misogynistic. What logic loop did you fall out of pal? Do you really think that is.. thinking???
Why don't you get some blue gel, rub the Doctor up, and then come back and ask that question.
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Quote:
Originally posted by NeutrinoLad:
Let me just hit the peaks and valleys as I see 'em.
Ghoulman, you are reading way WAY too much into the story lines. Frankly, I don't think there's any such depth to any of the stories, much less a concerted effort at misogyny, fascism, or any other isms.
OK, Berman and Braga themselves have said so. Suliban = Taliban. The Expanse/Iraq storyline replacing the Temporal Cold War storyline, etc. Don't tell me it's in my imagination.
Why am I the only person aware of the facts while you so called "fans" are completely blind?
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I think the problem is, as I've read, that Bragga believes they've told every Star Trek story that can be told (pretty sure that's close to the quote). Hell, if you really believe that, stop telling them and get out of the way so someone else can. BTW, I consider Bragga's sentiment complete bushwah.
And this is why I ask "why?" when it comes to a 4th season of Enterprise. Not even the asshole makeing this crap show thinks it's worth it! Jebus save me!
See how everything the Ghoulman says is confirmed by the very people the Ghoulman is bitching about? Wow, insanity thy name is Hollywoodland!
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I just do not give a gorram about the characters on Enterprise, or their situation. Who cares if the Earth gets blowed up real good? Daniels will just come back and twist time around, no imagination required. No real drama generated.
Now, you might not care... but are you aware that with a franchise like Ent around shows like Firefly are shelved? Think about it.
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For the fella who made the snide aside about, "I've seen better comic books...", well so have I. A lot. In fact, I would estimate there are more comics worth reading than television shows worth watching about now. Try Small Gods, Powers, Planetary, GCPD, or Deus Ex Machina. And dig into the stacks for From Hell, Jinx, and Moonshadow.
Yea, I was being snide. Good on you for pointing out that there are comic books that are far better than many TV shows. Though, not that many.
Moonshadow? How old is that? I think I have one with the EPIC comic tag on it.
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Well hell, there's even this new fella, Joss Whedon, writing this book about a team, well a family really. The X-Men I think they're called? Been a damn fine read so far, for a rookie. Been a damn fine read for anybody.
You rock!
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"So my long and well thought out essay didn't impress you as anything more than that. Gee. Thanks."
Um. Yeah. I thought I'd made that clear. You see, your derogatory responses since then (not to mention the deliberately inflammatory language in the post itself) obscured /any/ thought that was in the essay.
*shrugs*
You had the bass up too high, babe. Couldn't hear the melody line. And, frankly, the bass was so sucky, I had no desire to.
The thought that I have had in regards to this has come from some other posters.
By the way, thanks guys!
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"Oprah Winfred called, she wants her baloney back. Prolly because she's hungry again."
*winces*
See? That right there. Yep. Your credibility just dove again.
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"Yes, yet another riveting Trek issue! Oh please. You recognize crap on the show but... I'm doing bad. Uhhh..."
Let me try another time. Yes. I can realize the bad being done on the show. But I can also recognize some of the good and I don't slam those who can recognize it as well.
That's a good thing.
Quote:
"Seems I'm the only one who is even AWARE of the Fanboy culture and body politic. I'm trying to point out the corporate manipulation of those, mostly young and impressionable, masses who are preyed upon by mega-corp-studios in a George Lucas inspired privateering orgy. It's a whole thing... something I was really hoping someone out there who actually has been in Fandom might converse about..."
Then the responsible course of action would have been, in that first post, to say: by the way Fanboy is being used as a term solely to define X type of person as a demographic. No offense is meant to those who like the show, I am referring to a specific mind set and group.
You didn't define your terms. Your argument thus had too much bass and lost almost all of its original intent.
Unless.... was this what you intended?
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"Are you comming on to me?"
*sigh* Ah, darling. I'd thought of it. But then you called me a fool.
And your sister.
Ick.
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"Yea... because smelly little fanboy shits deserve respect?"
Yes. They do.
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"Well, they don't - buying lots of crap doesn't impress me."
And you don't impress me. Lucky for all of us that the world doesn't revolve around who is impressed by whom. *gently*
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"Fanboys are a black spot on Sci-Fi and Fantasy, they hurt good work (like Firefly... something in my essay you missed?)."
we-ell... I got a bit of it. A couple notes made it through. *nods*
But the name calling in the following posts was just so much louder. I thought you might appreciate hearing how you 'sounded' to a relatively unbias audience.
But, then again, I'm a fool. Right?
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"If you're not even AWARE of the issues then don't get onto a high horse."
I'm sorry hon. *gently again* I thought I was making /you/ aware of the side issues your method of debate had created. Issues such as respect, politeness, credibility... Issues that all obscured your origional intent that barely anyone on this list has responded directly to that original intent.
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"WHAT!?!?! You're a fool. Shut up."
*Laughs*
Your logic has overwhelmed me!
Oh yes. *eyes glaze* I am a fool. I should shut up.
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"You got that right sister."
Tommy?! What the are you doing on the FireFly boards!? I've not seen you in years! *HUGS wildly*
And, yes, brother dear. I'm done. Because its not my intent to debate you, and I'm not going to waste effort saying and resaying what I was trying to get across.
Except one more time ->
You may or may not have had a valid point. I'm just sad that it never made it through your delivery method to be heard, and sad that you are apparently so emotionally invested in your own point of view that you cannot calmly and logically respond to counter arguments or counter ideas.
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